Michael: Incompetent, or Told to Stand Down?

[The Rogue Tomato]

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael STAND UP, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Now, that's a bit of a puzzler. The great prince who stands for the children of Israel stands up, and then all hell breaks loose. Maybe Israel needs a better prince.

OR, consider that the Hebrew translated here as "stand up" is עָמַד, which is the same word translated in other places as STAND STILL, or CEASE. Or, in military terms, STAND DOWN.

In my not so humble opinion, this is who Paul is talking about here: "6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way."

 

[Dizerner]

Here's what my go-to lexicon says:

Found over 500 times in the OT, ʿāmadh, which basically means “to stand,” is evenly distributed throughout the OT. The verb is attested in Middle Hebrew and cognates are attested in Akkadian and Arabic.
ʿāmadh has both transitive (“to place,” “to establish”) and intransitive (“to stand,” “to stay”) applications. It is used with reference to animate as well as inanimate things. Laban, inviting Abraham’s servant inside, asked why he was still standing outside (Gen. 24:30f). Pharaoh dreamed that he was standing on the banks of the Nile (Gen. 41:17). The waters of the Jordan “stood” near the city of Adam, enabling the Israelites to cross the river (Josh. 3:16). The pillar of cloud stood near the tent (Deut. 31:15).
Followed by the preposition ʿal (HED # 6142), ʿāmadh indicates persons having authority over others. The leaders over those who were numbered brought wagons and oxen as offerings (Num. 7:2f). At the Last Day, Michael, the archangel, will defend (literally “stand over”) God’s people (Dan. 12:1). Once, ʿāmadh with l e (HED # 3937) refers to sailors going up to land (Ezek. 27:29).
The returning exiles laid upon themselves the obligation to fully keep the Law (Neh. 9:2f). A proclamation “established” by Hezekiah requested that all Israel celebrate the Passover (2 Chr. 30:5).
Used with b e (HED # 904), ʿāmadh denotes persistence. For example, Isaiah taunted those who persisted in idolatry, “Stand fast in (b e) your enchantments and your many sorceries” (Isa. 47:12, RSV). Yahweh chastened his people so that they might persist in keeping their Covenant with Him (Ezek. 17:14). Although the heavens may vanish, the LORD will remain (Ps. 102:26).
In a technical sense, ʿāmadh refers to someone serving a dignitary. For example, David “stood before” Saul (1 Sam. 16:21). In his vision, Ezekiel observed those who stood before the LORD (Ezek. 44:15).


Thoralf Gilbrant, “‏עָמַד,” The Old Testament Hebrew-English Dictionary, The Complete Biblical Library (WORDsearch, 1998).

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

 

[Dizerner]

It's nice to cite your sources: http://lexiconcordance.com/hebrew

 

[Frank Russell]

Focusing on the meaning of one word to prove a point ignores biblical instruction. (2 Timothy 2:14, Matthew 23:24)

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I see this forum is no different than any other.

 

[Frank Russell]

My recommendation is to elaborate on how the sentence is constructed. posting a word definition in and of itself proves nothing in any language.

It's not like the translators didn't know how to translate.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I did elaborate on the context. It makes no sense that the turning point that leads to great tribulation is that Michael stand up.

And there are lots of examples of poor translations, regardless of the reason, not necessarily because translators don't know how to translate. John 21 makes no sense in English. And there's a distinct and important difference between being born again and born from above, yet there it is: "born again".

Not to mention "do not kill", where even some translations have finally come around to "do not murder" which is closer to the original.

 

[Rockerduck]

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael STAND UP, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Now, that's a bit of a puzzler. The great prince who stands for the children of Israel stands up, and then all hell breaks loose. Maybe Israel needs a better prince.

OR, consider that the Hebrew translated here as "stand up" is עָמַד, which is the same word translated in other places as STAND STILL, or CEASE. Or, in military terms, STAND DOWN.

In my not so humble opinion, this is who Paul is talking about here: "6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way."

You quote Daniel in the first sentence about Michael then 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 which is about the Holy Spirit.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

You quote Daniel in the first sentence about Michael then 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 which is about the Holy Spirit.

Paul never says it's the Holy Spirit. That's merely an interpretation. And I happen to believe it's Michael who is taken away (stands down). It makes more sense to me, since all hell breaks loose as soon as he stops protecting Israel.

 

[DavP]

Paul never says it's the Holy Spirit. That's merely an interpretation. And I happen to believe it's Michael who is taken away (stands down). It makes more sense to me, since all hell breaks loose as soon as he stops protecting Israel.

Yep! Archangel Michael is the one that is actually doing the 'withholding' of 2 Thess.2.

The Daniel 10 chapter which Daniel is shown by the angel, is about Heavenly events that parallels events upon the earth. The one called "the prince of Persia" there represents Satan himself. And the angel says the only one helping to hold him is Archangel Michael...

Dan 10:20-21
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
KJV


So really, what's that idea of "holdeth", or 2 Thess.2:6-7 "withholdeth" about? It is about the following coming event that is still yet future to us... but is very near...

Rev 12:7-12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, 'Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.'

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
KJV

It will be the casting out of Heaven down to this earth of Satan and his angels for the end "great tribulation", which is about the coming Daniel 12:1 "time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:".

 

[civic]

Paul never says it's the Holy Spirit. That's merely an interpretation. And I happen to believe it's Michael who is taken away (stands down). It makes more sense to me, since all hell breaks loose as soon as he stops protecting Israel.

Interesting

 

[DavP]

Interesting

In interpret the Daniel 12:1 idea of Michael making a 'stand' against Satan and his angels in Heaven, about the war in Heaven of Rev.12:7 forward which is pointing to the end of this world, and the coming tribulation.

Dan 12:1
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
KJV

Because of Satan's war in Heaven with Archangel Michael and his angels, Satan and his angels are booted out of the Heavenly dimension down to our earth. And that is when the Power of Christ, specifically in Heaven, will come, that Rev.12 Scripture also says. Included in that after his casting out is mention of the saints of the 5th Seal that are to be delivered up and killed during the coming tribulation. So no way that was past history.