Kirk Cameron and annihilationism

[civic]

For sure.


Agreed. God looks at the heart and there will be no one without a genuinely repentant heart that is fully on God’s side and following Him who makes it into heaven.


As I alluded to God will not be fooled, no doubt about it, we are in full agreement there.

I know several people, some quite close, for whom going through a sort of hell on earth brought them to the light. Are those people disqualified? Of course not, but I guess you could say “they should have turned before all the difficulty.” Yes it would have been better if they had. The reality is most people do have their faith formed in some way by great loss or difficulty. Thomas the disciple even comes to mind. Would it have been better had he believed before seeing the scars. Well, yeah, but that certainly doesn’t disqualify him for believing after seeing. Do you agree?


At least for the purposes of this discussion I’d like to "leave Satan out of it" if you will.

I think most of what you say in this section ironically reinforces my point. Kids born into a truly Christian family have an extreme advantage with regard to developing saving faith in this lifetime. I think based on the “facts on the ground” that we see in this world, there really is no other possible option that would withstand any definition of love or fairness than that death not be the end of any chance to be saved. (if the postmillennialists are right, maybe one day that won't be the case, but we certainly aren't there yet)

You say “isn’t it unfair that people after death would still get to develop faith?” I'd answer "is it fair that we get to be saved in this life?" We imagine it would be too obvious after death. Maybe, maybe not. What actually is hell? It’s mentioned astonishingly few times in the bible (very little in the NT and almost never in the OT). All we really have are metaphors (fire, outer darkness, etc).

The truth is we don’t know what the unsaved really will experience there, but nowhere in the bible does it say people don’t have chances beyond death. Given that we serve a God of love (key word “of”) I think the default should be that he would seldom if ever create humans in such a way that they are capable of forever rejecting him. I suspect that most of the unsaved, if they were put in the same circumstances as you and I, would have faith before death.

Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, God, You will not despise.


Isaiah 66:2
Has not My hand made all these things? And so they came into being,” declares the LORD. “This is the one I will esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit, who trembles at My word.

Matthew 5:3
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

James 4:6
But He gives us more grace. This is why it says: “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

1 Peter 5:5
Young men, in the same way, submit yourselves to your elders. And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is on Me, because the LORD has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and freedom to the prisoners,

Luke 18:13-14
But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’ / I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation without regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

Psalm 102:17
He will regard the prayer of the destitute, and not despise their prayer.

2 Chronicles 33:12, 13
And when he was in affliction, he besought the LORD his God, and humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers,

hope this helps !!!

 

[Jim]

Characteristics. "Living soul" is rather broad term. We can see/examine these "creatures" that God created. Their "seed" still remains with us today. Nature teaches us.

Relative to your appeal to "chay nephesh"?

Like I've said. Hebrew has a very complicated history. Modern Block Script Hebrew is nothing more than a translation through various iterations over five thousands years. Modern Block Script Hebrew is often used to deny our Lord Jesus Christ. What Moses wrote most accurate survives in the Greek language of the Greek OT manuscripts.

Genesis 1:24 from Codex Alexandrinus

καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός· ἐξαγαγέτω ἡ γῆ ψυχὴν ζῶσαν κατὰ γένος, τετράποδα καὶ ἑρπετὰ καὶ θηρία τῆς γῆς κατὰ γένος· καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως.

And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle/four-footed animals, creeping things, and beasts/wild animals of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so.

Genesis 2:7 from Codex Alexandrinus

καὶ ἔπλασεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν ἄνθρωπον χοῦν ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς καὶ ἐνεφύσησεν εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ πνοὴν ζωῆς, καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ ἄνθρωπος εἰς ψυχὴν ζῶσαν.

And God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his face the breath of life; and the man became a living soul.

ψυχὴν ζῶσαν is identical in both verses. The creatures that survive today that we can equally compare are not. They are similar but not identical.

That is why there are more words in the Greek language than just ψυχὴν ζῶσαν.

We can talk about other relative verses if you like.

OK, and so what? How does any of that support your premise of something besides God forming the spirit of a man in him at or before birth?

 

[praise_yeshua]

OK, and so what? How does any of that support your premise of something besides God forming the spirit of a man in him at or before birth?

So you have a bible verse somewhere that tells us explicitly that the living soul comes from the "breath of God" individual.... "point in time" into a developing body in the womb of female human being?

I can examine the existing products "human beings" and know that cells begin "growing" after the "kind" of Adam/Eve immediately upon conception. The body (every how small) without a spirit is dead.

 

[Jim]

So you have a bible verse somewhere that tells us explicitly that the living soul comes from the "breath of God" individual.... "point in time" into a developing body in the womb of female human being?

Gen 2:7 ......and the man became a living soul.

Man became a living soul. A living soul [Heb-nephesh] is what we are, not what we have. A spirit is what we have; that and a body. That spirit is from God.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

 

[praise_yeshua]

Gen 2:7 ......and the man became a living soul.

Man became a living soul. A living soul [Heb-nephesh] is what we are, not what we have. A spirit is what we have; that and a body. That spirit is from God.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

It doesn't matter if you twist the Greek source beyond the meaning. You're still not establishing what you believe to be true.

Nothing you referenced extends beyond Adam. You do know what the Hebrew source and proper name we use to reference the "first man" literally means "man". It isn't a proper name in Hebrew. Not like we use it ourselves.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Gen 2:7 ......and the man became a living soul.

Man became a living soul. A living soul [Heb-nephesh] is what we are, not what we have. A spirit is what we have; that and a body. That spirit is from God.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

Just FYI so you'll hopefully not ignore it.....

Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Gen 2:7 ......and the man became a living soul.

Man became a living soul. A living soul [Heb-nephesh] is what we are, not what we have. A spirit is what we have; that and a body. That spirit is from God.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

@Jim, When we take the full counsel of Scripture — Hebrews 4:12, 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Ecclesiastes 12:7, and Matthew 10:28 — we see soul and spirit spoken of distinctly and functioning differently. The spirit returns to God, the soul can be destroyed, and the word of God divides between the two. That suggests they are not identical. I believe Scripture supports a tripartite understanding of man.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@Jim, When we take the full counsel of Scripture — Hebrews 4:12, 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Ecclesiastes 12:7, and Matthew 10:28 — we see soul and spirit spoken of distinctly and functioning differently. The spirit returns to God, the soul can be destroyed, and the word of God divides between the two. That suggests they are not identical. I believe Scripture supports a tripartite understanding of man.

The spirit of mankind grows. It learns. It expands. It starts out very small in the union of two seeds. The male and the female union of all living things.

The soul is a complicated conversation. The way most people treat "soul" actually blurs the lines between spirit and soul. Even the Greek or Hebrew languages as they have evolved/devolved over the centuries often deal with them interchangeable with the same words.

So if we were to try to define "soul"..... What are your thoughts?

An argument can be made that the "soul" is what the mind/consciousness becomes independent from the power of the spirit of man to discern/feel his experience via "living".

 

[AaronH]

Reasoned. Sensible. Can't say that I can outright deny anything you said.

I would like to include Satan because I think "Satan" can actually define the severity of God. What is God capable of in contrast to the seemingly endless and bountiful love of Christ.

Is Satan due everlasting torment? There is a long history of "long-suffering" even for Satan. Tolerance. Forbearance. However, there judgement is significant.

2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment,
2Pe 2:5 and if he did not spare the ancient world, but did protect Noah, a herald of righteousness, along with seven others, when God brought a flood on an ungodly world,
2Pe 2:6 and if he turned to ashes the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah when he condemned them to destruction, having appointed them to serve as an example to future generations of the ungodly,

These are difficult issues.

I have ask myself. Can a person, once judged in significant retribution, ever truly change their minds?

I appreciate your response and commitment not to commit on things the bible isn't super clear about. I share that. I tend to believe that the things in heaven, things on earth, and things under the earth are all-inclusive, even of Satan and the fallen angels, but I'm not committed to that notion. My concern lies primarily in the human realm simply because we are told so comparatively little about principalities and powers, and when it comes to humans we do well not to take judgement from temporal landscapes (Noah's peers, the inhabitants of Sodom, etc) and apply them the age to come, imo.

 

[Jim]

@Jim, When we take the full counsel of Scripture — Hebrews 4:12, 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Ecclesiastes 12:7, and Matthew 10:28 — we see soul and spirit spoken of distinctly and functioning differently. The spirit returns to God, the soul can be destroyed, and the word of God divides between the two. That suggests they are not identical. I believe Scripture supports a tripartite understanding of man.

Yes, soul and spirit are different. But the truth is in both the OT and the NT, when speaking of the human being, soul and spirit are used interchangeably. I believe the relation between soul and spirit are that we, human beings, are souls who have bodies and spirits.

 

[AaronH]

Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, God, You will not despise.


Isaiah 66:2
Has not My hand made all these things? And so they came into being,” declares the LORD. “This is the one I will esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit, who trembles at My word.

Matthew 5:3
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

James 4:6
But He gives us more grace. This is why it says: “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

1 Peter 5:5
Young men, in the same way, submit yourselves to your elders. And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is on Me, because the LORD has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and freedom to the prisoners,

Luke 18:13-14
But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’ / I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation without regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

Psalm 102:17
He will regard the prayer of the destitute, and not despise their prayer.

2 Chronicles 33:12, 13
And when he was in affliction, he besought the LORD his God, and humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers,

hope this helps !!!

Amen and Amen! I don't think the bible warns more against any trait than that of pridefulness. My question would be, can anyone turn firmly toward God (and, therefore by necessity, away from their pride) after temporal death? I believe the higher prior probability is "no," and I also see nothing in the bible precluding it.

 

[Jim]

It doesn't matter if you twist the Greek source beyond the meaning.

I haven't twisted anything. I simply posted scripture. If there is any twisting of scripture anywhere in this forum, it can often be found in what you present. Your theology is more than a little skewed; so much so that I really can't determine most of the time what it is that you actually believe. And your posting of your thinking concerning the source of the spirit of man is but one of those.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I appreciate your response and commitment not to commit on things the bible isn't super clear about. I share that. I tend to believe that the things in heaven, things on earth, and things under the earth are all-inclusive, even of Satan and the fallen angels, but I'm not committed to that notion. My concern lies primarily in the human realm simply because we are told so comparatively little about principalities and powers, and when it comes to humans we do well not to take judgement from temporal landscapes (Noah's peers, the inhabitants of Sodom, etc) and apply them the age to come, imo.

I can accept this. We do have revelations throughout written history of how God has dealt with Satan. We also have references to the punishment of Satan that appears to be more severe. It does make me believe that there is some context of everlasting punishment being referenced in relationship to Satan. I don't know, nor is it revealed, exacting details of the animosity that exists between Satan and God. I can leave it at that.

Thanks

 

[praise_yeshua]

I haven't twisted anything. I simply posted scripture. If there is any twisting of scripture anywhere in this forum, it can often be found in what you present. Your theology is more than a little skewed; so much so that I really can't determine most of the time what it is that you actually believe. And your posting of your thinking concerning the source of the spirit of man is but one of those.

You shouldn't compare what I believe to what others believe. I don't "fit in" anywhere. I speak for myself.

I withdraw the "twisting" part of my comments. Not trying to offend you.

If you want to point out an inconsistency in what I've said, I'll listen. If you want to compare what I've said against the realities of our existence and the Scriptures, then I'll listen. Please do.

 

[civic]

Amen and Amen! I don't think the bible warns more against any trait than that of pridefulness. My question would be, can anyone turn firmly toward God (and, therefore by necessity, away from their pride) after temporal death? I believe the higher prior probability is "no," and I also see nothing in the bible precluding it.

It’s required in this life in the here and now to be saved. It’s the starting point.

 

[FreeInChrist]

The spirit of mankind grows. It learns. It expands. It starts out very small in the union of two seeds. The male and the female union of all living things.

The soul is a complicated conversation. The way most people treat "soul" actually blurs the lines between spirit and soul. Even the Greek or Hebrew languages as they have evolved/devolved over the centuries often deal with them interchangeable with the same words.

So if we were to try to define "soul"..... What are your thoughts?

An argument can be made that the "soul" is what the mind/consciousness becomes independent from the power of the spirit of man to discern/feel his experience via "living".

@praise_yeshua,

A great subject ~ and I think the answer often reflects one’s underlying view of man.

First, if I may comment:

I appreciate what you’re saying about growth of the spirit, but I think we have to be careful not to let biological categories shape our anthropology more than Scripture does.

When I read Ecclesiastes 12:7, it seems to make a clear distinction: the body returns to the dust, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. That language suggests the spirit is imparted by God, not generated by the union of male and female seed. The body clearly develops biologically, but Scripture consistently attributes the origin of the spirit to God (see Gen. 2:7; Zech. 12:1; Heb. 12:9).

I do believe the spirit can grow ~but in the sense of maturity and responsiveness to God, not in the sense of starting as a small biological fragment that expands. Scripture speaks of being dead in trespasses and sins and then being made alive (Eph. 2:1–5), and of being strengthened in the inner man (Eph. 3:16). That sounds like functional and relational development rather than physical enlargement.

As for the soul, I see it as distinct from the spirit in role and function. The soul seems to be the seat of self-conscious life ~ intellect, will, emotions, affections, and personal identity. It is what makes us uniquely personal beings. The spirit, on the other hand, is that dimension designed for God-consciousness ~ communion, discernment, and spiritual perception. It is our spirit that is involved in the new birth by way of the Holy Spirit, as seen in John 3:6.

That’s why Hebrews 4:12 is significant to me. If the Word can divide between soul and spirit, then while they are deeply integrated, they are not identical. And 1 Thessalonians 5:23 lists spirit, soul, and body distinctly.

So I would say the human person is unified, but not simplistic. The body develops through biological union. The soul expresses our personal, self-conscious life. The spirit is given by God and is the faculty by which we relate to Him. They work together, but Scripture gives us reason to distinguish them.

That’s why I lean toward a tripartite understanding ~ not to overcomplicate things, but because I believe the text itself warrants the distinction.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@praise_yeshua,

A great subject ~ and I think the answer often reflects one’s underlying view of man.

First, if I may comment:

I appreciate what you’re saying about growth of the spirit, but I think we have to be careful not to let biological categories shape our anthropology more than Scripture does.

I understand your concern. I don't hold to an absolute in "naming" much of anything. It is the "thought" being expressed that is more important to me. Even when "terminology" is lacking we draw some distinctions from biology. I presented a rudimentary progression in biology and a simple framework to explain it.

When I read Ecclesiastes 12:7, it seems to make a clear distinction: the body returns to the dust, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. That language suggests the spirit is imparted by God, not generated by the union of male and female seed. The body clearly develops biologically, but Scripture consistently attributes the origin of the spirit to God (see Gen. 2:7; Zech. 12:1; Heb. 12:9).

I see references to Adam. Not to Adam's descendants. Not even to Eve. I have dealt with Eve to a degree, but I can add more to that discussion.

I don't see how it is possible to compare babies to how Adam received the "breath" of God. Adam was fully formed.

As to Ecc 12:7. The Greek OT presents a question. The extant Hebrew manuscripts are flawed in the reading that Solomon recorded. It does not establish that that the spirit of animals do not return to God. The spirit of man is continued in the offspring of the descendants of Adam when the "breath" that Adam received and "split" to Eve, is joined in the seed of Eve in the womb of a female. The seed of Adam and Eve have these innate qualities of life.

God doesn't literally "breath into" each human "fetus" the "breath of life" like God did with Adam. That comparison doesn't logically work... and there is nothing that says the same thing happens to babies.

I do believe the spirit can grow ~but in the sense of maturity and responsiveness to God, not in the sense of starting as a small biological fragment that expands. Scripture speaks of being dead in trespasses and sins and then being made alive (Eph. 2:1–5), and of being strengthened in the inner man (Eph. 3:16). That sounds like functional and relational development rather than physical enlargement.

Being "dead in trespasses" and sin isn't a hyper-literal state of being. It is a disposition that is held over the existence of all human beings. I'm not dead. You're not either. Even before you were "born again", you were alive. Not "literally dead in trespasses and sin". You were innocent. Incapable of being culpable for sin at all..... much less being culpable for the sin of another.

There is no life without a spirit. I referenced James as a fact of nature and revelation. Nothing grows at all without a spirit. Adam was fully formed but he wasn't alive. Same is true of all life. The "spirit of man" is unique to man. The "spirit of others" is unique to those "others". However, there is no life with a "spirit/breath" for all things that breath. Things that are literally dead do not GROW or "expand".

Eph 3:16 describes a different state of life for those who are "born again". Eternal life. Innate/Intrinsic life. Adam didn't receive that "sort/type" of life in what you're referencing as the "spirit" in Genesis 2:7. I know this because of what the Scriptures teach about the Incarnation. The Hypostatic Union. I have vast experience with dealing with these topic. I believe I'm better at it than anyone else. I believe I can prove it. It is a long and complicated topic, but I believe I understand it better than most anyone else. You must compare the life of the "man" Jesus Christ to the "Deity/Divinity" of Jesus Christ to understand the "Person" of Jesus Christ.

As for the soul, I see it as distinct from the spirit in role and function. The soul seems to be the seat of self-conscious life ~ intellect, will, emotions, affections, and personal identity. It is what makes us uniquely personal beings. The spirit, on the other hand, is that dimension designed for God-consciousness ~ communion, discernment, and spiritual perception. It is our spirit that is involved in the new birth by way of the Holy Spirit, as seen in John 3:6.

When you are "born again", you are a "NEW Creature". That doesn't require anything of substance in this "new creation" to already exist. Think... "Hypostatic Union".

That’s why Hebrews 4:12 is significant to me. If the Word can divide between soul and spirit, then while they are deeply integrated, they are not identical. And 1 Thessalonians 5:23 lists spirit, soul, and body distinctly.

I agree completely in the necessity of Trichotomy. The "spirit" being divided from the soul is a necessity. When the "Word of God" "pierces" the heart..... our "human heart". The "human heart" is more than just the "pump" for one of our biological systems. It is where we "feel" God. It is our "sense" physically and emotionally of our circumstances and consciousness. It is "who we are". The "Word of God" "cuts us" and reveals what we are ourselves "absent God".

So I would say the human person is unified, but not simplistic. The body develops through biological union. The soul expresses our personal, self-conscious life. The spirit is given by God and is the faculty by which we relate to Him. They work together, but Scripture gives us reason to distinguish them.

That’s why I lean toward a tripartite understanding ~ not to overcomplicate things, but because I believe the text itself warrants the distinction.

I would describe the spirit of man as the "lingering remnants of the very character of God (attributes) originally imparted to Adam. It is what animates us now. It is what gives life to us, but it is not "Eternal life" itself. Such only comes from the new birth.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It’s required in this life in the here and now to be saved. It’s the starting point.

I would agree in the context of establishing culpability. I leave room for options for those that are not firmly within the realm of "culpability". I don't know all those possibilities.