Kirk Cameron and annihilationism
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praise_yeshua
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You were born in the image of both your father and mother. Adam isn't the origin of life. God is.
Adam curse and Fall was given to all born in him
civic
Active Member
The curse was death. All men die with the exception of Enoch and Elijah. Also those alive at Jesus 2nd Coming will not experience death as per Paul in Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians. They will be immediately transformed with their new immortal and incorruptible bodies.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
AND GLORIFIED.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
You seem to think God just loves to punish people.
What did Adam do that justifies the punishment of eternal damnation?
civic
Active Member
FreeInChrist
Active Member
He listened to his wife...... Sorry, I could not resist.
He was not judged into hell, as God sent forth the promised messiah to save Him and Eve , symbolized by the shedding of the animals blood on their behalf
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Oh the wonderful things I see in that
I do believe that Adam knew what he was doing and didn't want to lose Eve. What Adam did was for Eve. The willingness that Adam had to face death for the person he loved.
Oh what empathy, but not nearly the empathy Christ showed for His Bride.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Oh. I agree. I love your response. I just don't understand how you reconcile what you've previously said with this response.
So where is this spiritual death?
civic
Active Member
Can you point me to any passage in the bible stating that either one of them was saved ? I can’t seem to find one. Thanks
When thy realized had disconnected from God, were aware of now being naked and became afraid
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Okay. I can work with that.
Why was realizing what you were already doing (being naked.....) indicate something bad?
There is some very real and challenging aspects of learning things that you didn't realize before. They were already naked. No sin involved.
Is a naked baby an indication of sin?
I already know God's perspective on being naked...
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
I get naked myself at times. It helps when I need to clean my body.
I don't see your point. Sure. Things changed for them but it isn't an indication that they somehow received a "sinful nature".
AaronH
Active Member
I don’t see the relevance of the Trinitarian view to this particular topic.
Cheers to that. Anyone who hasn’t struggled with ECT at some point in their life is badly calloused in some way.
I agree, yet there Psalms 30:5 and 103.8 are, explicitly telling us God’s anger is temporary. God’s love is bigger than the offenses and he will never turn his back permanently on those who are truly repentant.
Yes.
Yes.
You won't like my answer, but nothing in the bible precludes repentance after death. If you try to prove there is, I have to preemptively preclude Hebrews 9:27 because it is so self evidently not saying there can be no turning after judgement.
This is an easy one. I would not make something so arbitrary as death be the cutoff point. I would create a lake of fire where sinners can be purified till they are at one with their creator as He intended (2 Peter 3:9).
First of all, props for preaching. I know you have a pure heart on this. My question is... Do you believe in an “age of accountability”? It’s a pretty common view and I do subscribe to it (Isaiah 7:16). It’s literally the case that a child or teen could reach the age of accountability steal a quarter from their big brother, walk across the street, buy a gumball, and as they cross back over get hit by a bus. That’s a rare scenario to be sure but not at all inconceivable. It can’t be that God would punish endlessly for single accountable sin (stealing a quarter from big bro). If you think "the kid deserves it" then this is where we need to zoom out, look at the character of God (the God OF love) and realize there has to be something wrong with the ECT interpretation.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I can drop this aspect for now. Thank you for the thoughtful answers. I agree with much of what you've stated....
Thusly, I will only respond where I'd like to challenge your perspective or disagree.
We should probably define "Godly Repentance". I wholeheartedly agree that I could never see God walking away from someone who really understood what they're sin had caused and was sincerely sorrowful for their own culpability in their sin and how it hurt others. God equally cares for all.
I wouldn't reject such at all. I actually like this answer because I believe you're possibly right. I would qualify this with "God looks on the heart". There are many in this life that have Godly intentions but have no idea how to accomplish them. I rightfully recognize that in my own personal life. There have been times I caused harm to others that I didn't realize I was causing at the time. When I realized it, It horrified me in the facts of my own culpability.
This is where you kinda lose me. Just how does punishment such as this actually change the mind and make someone culpable in understanding what true repentance is?
It is "torture". We know that someone being "tortured" will do anything to get out of that torment. It doesn't actually change the heart....
Example,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
No matter how you "slice" this in the context of the fulfillment of prophecy. You have the scenario where those gathered for the battle were just "going along" with the "rule" of the King. That is what many people do. They "go along" because they realize they have no power to resist. That isn't repentance. That isn't knowing and agreeing with God.
I do believe in a general age of accountability relative to culpability "beginning to be established in any person's life at a relatively early age. However, I prefer to deal with the issue from the perspective of being "innocent". "Innocence" is a complicated "thing". Even Jesus spoke of how David broke the law in eating the bread only meant for the priest and was innocent. It is more than an age. Innocence is a complicated construct of intent and knowledge. Mankind is destroyed because of their lack of knowledge. People just don't understand. Part of that understanding is OUR job. We are meant to remove any barrier to understanding in the very minimum aspects of embracing Jesus Christ for salvation. I've said this before here. I have a very low threshold for salvation. It is more about intent and the pureness of that intent in the heart that matters to me. I think the Scriptures teach this. I defer to God for those who meet that "threshold". I can't know it myself. However, I believe that many people don't know God because.... GOD expects us to win the hearts of others to Him. We are the reasons why there are so few anymore that seem to be "saved".
The scenario you mentioned about the kid......
I see so much culpability in the "human systems" we live within in your scenario. That "bus" is a human creation. If there wasn't for that bus, it wouldn't have happened. The quarter wouldn't exist if it were not for "human government" desiring to own all interaction between the human race to the point that their "coinage" has so much meaning. It actually doesn't. That "love not" the "things in the world" is so wrapped up in such things. People should not be blaming God. We should be blaming ourselves for almost everything bad that we like to lay at the feet of God. I would have to include the culpability of the entire human race throughout all ages in any context of culpability for everlasting torment.
A difficult scenario I'd like to propose. Not prejudging here. Talk through this with me....What responsibility would God have in the following scenario....
God had to give someone over to a reprobate mind because multiple generations within that person's lineage continually produced genuinely evil descendents. Over and over again. In contrast to, faith produces faith (faith to faith) .. evil produces evil. Faith is so very often multi-generational but so is unbelief. Jesus continually references how the Pharisees were the product of their fathers and ultimately they were the descendents of their lying father. Satan.
Should we equate the descendents of Satan with the same punishment as Satan? Just within the context of the character of God as displayed against Satan himself, would everlasting torment be outside the character of God?
Let me know your thoughts.
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Victoria
Active Member
@JesusFan is actually correct on two points made here. All religious tradition/theology aside, God does teach that every man is indeed born w/ a sin nature & that all are in Adam until made alive in Christ. There is an Age of Accountability, however. Below are just some scriptures I found to share. Hope this helps
All Born in Sin:
"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5
"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." Psalm 58:3
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men,
for that all have sinned:" Romans 5:12
"Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him." Proverbs 22:15
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9
1st Dead In Adam, Then Made Alive in Christ:
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
1 Corinthians 15:22
"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."
1 Corinthians 15:45
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If anything, the sin was in his mother. That what the verse says. It says, "my mother conceived me in sin".@JesusFan is actually correct on two points made here. All religious tradition/theology aside, God does teach that every man is indeed born w/ a sin nature & that all are in Adam until made alive in Christ. There is an Age of Accountability, however. Below are just some scriptures I found to share. Hope this helps
All Born in Sin:
"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5
That is all quite obviously an hyperbola. Who have you ever known that was speaking as soon as they were born, either truths or lies?
You, like so many misstate that verse. It says, "death spread to all men, because all sinned-- " Because all men sinned, not because Adam sinned. The only thing that resulted from Adam's sin was that He died spiritually and was ejected from the Garden of Eden. And it wasn't even Adam that kept the rest of us out of the Garden; that was "the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life" (Gen 3:24).
Foolishness is not sin.
All who could sin have sinned. To sin is to choose to not obey God. A very young child cannot even choose not to soil his britches.
Obviously, the newborn child is not deceitful. All it knows and wants is food and care.
That is speaking of physical death and resurrection at the end of the age when Christ returns. I has nothing to do with original sin. To be "in Adam" is to be a human being, nothing more and nothing less. The believer and the unbeliever, alike, will die and be resurrected.
That verse, in context, is speaking of the difference between us now and us upon resurrection. It follows verses 25 through 44 which is a discussion of the resurrection body.
Original sin is a blaspheme against God. God has created [made} a spirit for each and every person. That spirit is pure and untainted in any way when it is given to us at or before birth. It is not tainted or evil in any way until such time that we commit a sin. God does not create evil spirits.
