Of course. Flesh and bone but not flesh and blood. What eisegetic nonsense!
Kirk Cameron and annihilationism
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
Define "flesh".
Real living flesh has blood. flesh without blood is dead. So is Jesus living now in heaven with flesh without blood?
civic
Active Member
I’m not answering another question until you answered mine. You asked me to define flesh which I did and you were to answer my question after and all you did was ask another question. I’m not playing your silly games. You are not interested in a dialogue just asking questions which are only a cover up for objections and your skepticism to hold onto your JW/ Gnostic belief about the flesh and the Resurrection
Is Jesus living in heaven with some glorified corporeal body? No!! God, the Father has glorified Jesus in God's own presence with the glory that Jesus had with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5). That was Jesus' prayer and I believe God the Father answered that prayer. The Father has not left Jesus as a human being, that is, a little lower than the angels as He was here on earth before and after crucifixion.
It is good to know that you think Jesus is still a little lower than the angels.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
You do not believe the universe exists physically? Big bang or no?
You do not believe that man actually walked on the moon? That was pretty physical.
You follow science, at least from some standpoint. You have been in discussions on that other forum.
Or are you merely referring to "life"?
Would you have felt better and believed in the possibilities if there was a book in the Holy Scriptures entitled
"Blueprint from God" where he lays it all out for no doubt on every thing? That way when Satan ws throne to earth he could easily have made an alternate universe to confuse people more.
But also, if that Book existed , there would be zero need for faith.
2 Cor 5:7 tells us "We walk by faith, not by sight...." Yet you want that sight to believe...
I believe your belief is backwards from the heavenly fathers plans and goals for us.
Now.. remember I asked you if you had read any of the book of Enoch... Which I assume you have not but here
In fact, 1 Enoch describes heaven in very concrete, almost physical terms.
Here’s what it shows:
What 1 Enoch describes
1 Enoch repeatedly portrays heaven as structured and tangible, not abstract or purely spiritual.
It includes: Places and geography
Enoch actually is taken on tours of heaven and sees: Houses, Walls, Courts, Thrones, Mountains, Rivers, Trees
and some of the more exciting are Storehouses for winds, stars, snow, hail, etc.
Here is an example......
In 1 Enoch 14:9–23
He sees... a house built of crystal , floors like crystal walls , a throne , fire around it
That’s architectural, spatial language , not “formless spirit existence.”
Then we read this about The Tree of Life
1 Enoch 25
Enoch sees a literal fragrant tree , fruit , and the righteous eating from it in the age to come
That’s very Eden-like and very physical imagery.
What does he say about Bodily resurrection expectation...?
1 Enoch 51:1–5 “In those days the earth shall give back that which has been entrusted to it,
and Sheol shall give back that which it has received…”
That IS resurrection language ..... bodies returning.
AND
“The righteous shall arise from their sleep…”
So there are not permanent disembodied spirits.
What about Angels?
Angels sit , walk , speak , eat (in some traditions this is tied to Enochic thought) , have faces, garments, wings
Again, they are not abstract “pure spirit with no form.”
Even though Enoch uses symbolic/apocalyptic imagery, it assumes heaven is a real realm with substance and location, not a purely non-physical state.
Second Temple Judaism (the world Jesus lived in) generally believed
Heaven = real place
Resurrection = bodily
Future kingdom = renewed creation
Which lines up much more with
Daniel 12 , Isaiah 65 , Ezekiel 40–48 , Revelation 21–22
not with “eternal ghost existence.”
So about your "only spiritual forever" idea...That view is actually more Greek/Platonic philosophy than Jewish or biblical thinking.
Greek thought:
body = bad
spirit only = ideal
Hebrew/biblical thought:
God created physical world “very good”
final hope = resurrection body + renewed creation
Even the New Testament says: Jesus has flesh and bones (Luke 24:39) , resurrection body , New Heaven and New Earth , New Jerusalem comes down Not “souls float upward forever.”
So we have 1 Enoch describing heaven with houses, thrones, trees, and resurrected people ...not a purely formless spiritual existence. Jewish apocalyptic writings expected a real, embodied future life, not eternal disembodied spirits.
We also have Heaven described as a real place (structures, dwelling)....1 Enoch 14:9–10 “The walls of the house were like crystal, and its floor of crystal.”
In the Bible that you cannot poopoo....
John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." (A spirit does not need a mansion or dwelling place')
But I could go on and on within the Bible, but this following will be my last for now.
Revelation 21:10–11, 18
“He showed me the holy city, Jerusalem… The wall was jasper… the city was pure gold, like clear glass.”
We see described houses, walls, a city, structure not a formless spirit realm.
And we see the Throne of God as a real location
1 Enoch 14:18
“I saw a lofty throne… and from underneath the throne came streams of fire.”Bible
Daniel 7:9–10
“Thrones were set in place… His throne was fiery flames…”Revelation 4:2–6
“A throne stood in heaven… and before the throne was something like a sea of glass.”Concrete throne imagery in both.
Revelation 21:1–3
“I saw a new heaven and a new earth… and the holy city coming down out of heaven…
the dwelling place of God is with men.”
Heaven comes down to earth.
Not:
humans escaping the physical
But:
creation renewed and embodied life with God
Even 1 Enoch, along with Daniel, Jesus, and Revelation, describes houses, trees, thrones, cities, and resurrection bodies. The biblical hope isn’t disembodied spirits — it’s restored, embodied life with God.
Jesus physical body was raised up now a imperishable glorified form, and that body is our template, as in our former physical bodies now raised up in a physical resurrection glorified state
Jesus was and is The Second person of the trinity, the One who incarnated and is now forever more the God man
civic
Active Member
Yep that’s the biblical , historical and orthodox position of the church since the times of the Apostles
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I want to take this slow. If we were having a verbal conversation, this would be much easier.
Define natural.
Define physical.
I'll go first.
1. The word nature is used in a significant sense in the Scriptures in many different places.
For example,
1Co 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
1Co 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
Most people focus upon "hair length" in these verses, but I do not. Paul distinct appeals to nature for evidence. He does this because there is ZERO evidence from Scripture that details the length of hair that men and women should wear.
We must accept the very fact that "nature" teaches us. Paul repeats this very "theme" later in his writings in Romans 1.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. NET edition
Notice. "because they are understood through what has been made"......
NATURE.
I mention the following because this battle you're fighting yourself has long been fought in the history of men. In theology, we reference this "subject" as Anthropomorphism.
Many Christians fear this subject because they associate it with "Idolatry". I believe you do the same. I do not. Man was made in the image of God. Adam carried forth the attributes of God in his very construction. We ourselves craft/create/fabricate things trying to give to those creations our characteristics. AI is just another attempt in the long history of man's attempts to duplicate what was done in own existence.
You should NOT fear the topic of Anthropomorphism. We discern our very existence through our experience. The Scriptures declare this to be true in the verses I posted above. I can list many more, but you should consider these verses I've shared with you.
2. Physical
This where the conversation gets a little "muddy". The English word "Physical" has no true Greek or Hebrew origins. "Physical" is really a "hodgepodge" of many different words. Suffice it to say. Many people see the word "Physical" to be synonymous with nature.
The Greek source root φύσις comes to use THROUGH Latin. You should realize that Latin is a complicated language that has spawned many modern misunderstands about the source.
φύσις = Physis
Look familiar? It is the very word that Paul used in 1Co 11:14 that is translated in most all English translation as "nature". To me, it most closely aligns with what we would reference as the study of "Physics" today.
Physics is all about matter. Nature is all about matter. I'm not trying to say that Physics defines God. Not in the least. However, Physics does help us understand what is around us. Physics is more than a scientific exploration to "quantify" and categorize everything that exists.
Physics is philosophical. Also, philosophy in nature does fit into some sense of "categorization" of Physics.
And... that is where we are right here.
You are struggling to categorize "Spiritual" absent any Physical attributes. Which really is nonsensical.
Where is heaven? Maybe this will help. Is heaven physical?
To deal with this, you can't deny the tangible nature of heaven.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
praise_yeshua
Active Member
The body of Christ didn't decay even when he lay in the tomb.
You need to address this.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
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