Of course. Flesh and bone but not flesh and blood. What eisegetic nonsense!
Kirk Cameron and annihilationism
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
Define "flesh".
Real living flesh has blood. flesh without blood is dead. So is Jesus living now in heaven with flesh without blood?
civic
Active Member
I’m not answering another question until you answered mine. You asked me to define flesh which I did and you were to answer my question after and all you did was ask another question. I’m not playing your silly games. You are not interested in a dialogue just asking questions which are only a cover up for objections and your skepticism to hold onto your JW/ Gnostic belief about the flesh and the Resurrection
Is Jesus living in heaven with some glorified corporeal body? No!! God, the Father has glorified Jesus in God's own presence with the glory that Jesus had with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5). That was Jesus' prayer and I believe God the Father answered that prayer. The Father has not left Jesus as a human being, that is, a little lower than the angels as He was here on earth before and after crucifixion.
It is good to know that you think Jesus is still a little lower than the angels.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
You do not believe the universe exists physically? Big bang or no?
You do not believe that man actually walked on the moon? That was pretty physical.
You follow science, at least from some standpoint. You have been in discussions on that other forum.
Or are you merely referring to "life"?
Would you have felt better and believed in the possibilities if there was a book in the Holy Scriptures entitled
"Blueprint from God" where he lays it all out for no doubt on every thing? That way when Satan ws throne to earth he could easily have made an alternate universe to confuse people more.
But also, if that Book existed , there would be zero need for faith.
2 Cor 5:7 tells us "We walk by faith, not by sight...." Yet you want that sight to believe...
I believe your belief is backwards from the heavenly fathers plans and goals for us.
Now.. remember I asked you if you had read any of the book of Enoch... Which I assume you have not but here
In fact, 1 Enoch describes heaven in very concrete, almost physical terms.
Here’s what it shows:
What 1 Enoch describes
1 Enoch repeatedly portrays heaven as structured and tangible, not abstract or purely spiritual.
It includes: Places and geography
Enoch actually is taken on tours of heaven and sees: Houses, Walls, Courts, Thrones, Mountains, Rivers, Trees
and some of the more exciting are Storehouses for winds, stars, snow, hail, etc.
Here is an example......
In 1 Enoch 14:9–23
He sees... a house built of crystal , floors like crystal walls , a throne , fire around it
That’s architectural, spatial language , not “formless spirit existence.”
Then we read this about The Tree of Life
1 Enoch 25
Enoch sees a literal fragrant tree , fruit , and the righteous eating from it in the age to come
That’s very Eden-like and very physical imagery.
What does he say about Bodily resurrection expectation...?
1 Enoch 51:1–5 “In those days the earth shall give back that which has been entrusted to it,
and Sheol shall give back that which it has received…”
That IS resurrection language ..... bodies returning.
AND
“The righteous shall arise from their sleep…”
So there are not permanent disembodied spirits.
What about Angels?
Angels sit , walk , speak , eat (in some traditions this is tied to Enochic thought) , have faces, garments, wings
Again, they are not abstract “pure spirit with no form.”
Even though Enoch uses symbolic/apocalyptic imagery, it assumes heaven is a real realm with substance and location, not a purely non-physical state.
Second Temple Judaism (the world Jesus lived in) generally believed
Heaven = real place
Resurrection = bodily
Future kingdom = renewed creation
Which lines up much more with
Daniel 12 , Isaiah 65 , Ezekiel 40–48 , Revelation 21–22
not with “eternal ghost existence.”
So about your "only spiritual forever" idea...That view is actually more Greek/Platonic philosophy than Jewish or biblical thinking.
Greek thought:
body = bad
spirit only = ideal
Hebrew/biblical thought:
God created physical world “very good”
final hope = resurrection body + renewed creation
Even the New Testament says: Jesus has flesh and bones (Luke 24:39) , resurrection body , New Heaven and New Earth , New Jerusalem comes down Not “souls float upward forever.”
So we have 1 Enoch describing heaven with houses, thrones, trees, and resurrected people ...not a purely formless spiritual existence. Jewish apocalyptic writings expected a real, embodied future life, not eternal disembodied spirits.
We also have Heaven described as a real place (structures, dwelling)....1 Enoch 14:9–10 “The walls of the house were like crystal, and its floor of crystal.”
In the Bible that you cannot poopoo....
John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." (A spirit does not need a mansion or dwelling place')
But I could go on and on within the Bible, but this following will be my last for now.
Revelation 21:10–11, 18
“He showed me the holy city, Jerusalem… The wall was jasper… the city was pure gold, like clear glass.”
We see described houses, walls, a city, structure not a formless spirit realm.
And we see the Throne of God as a real location
1 Enoch 14:18
“I saw a lofty throne… and from underneath the throne came streams of fire.”Bible
Daniel 7:9–10
“Thrones were set in place… His throne was fiery flames…”Revelation 4:2–6
“A throne stood in heaven… and before the throne was something like a sea of glass.”Concrete throne imagery in both.
Revelation 21:1–3
“I saw a new heaven and a new earth… and the holy city coming down out of heaven…
the dwelling place of God is with men.”
Heaven comes down to earth.
Not:
humans escaping the physical
But:
creation renewed and embodied life with God
Even 1 Enoch, along with Daniel, Jesus, and Revelation, describes houses, trees, thrones, cities, and resurrection bodies. The biblical hope isn’t disembodied spirits — it’s restored, embodied life with God.
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