Kirk Cameron and annihilationism

The more I am on here the more I am convinced that posters often read the same words but interpret them differently.

Obviously the JWs are worst because they even follow their own bible that gor translated by someone without a working knowledge of Hebrew and only 2 years of college Greek and no mention if those studies were Classical Greek or Koine Greek. but those of that persuasion are very locked into it.... unbelievably so... and they are among those who will argue against what scripture actually says.
Absolutely. Its similar to when a reformed person says the word predestined or reads the word in one of the 6 places its used in the N.T. they read into that word what their reformed systematic theology says it means- you were elected to heaven or hell before creation. That has nothing to do with its meaning. The same is going on here with body, spiritual, glorified, firstfruits, resurrection etc.....
 
Absolutely. Its similar to when a reformed person says the word predestined or reads the word in one of the 6 places its used in the N.T. they read into that word what their reformed systematic theology says it means- you were elected to heaven or hell before creation. That has nothing to do with its meaning. The same is going on here with body, spiritual, glorified, firstfruits, resurrection etc.....
Agreed. And part of that with the reformers is truly the fault of what I say are limitations in the bible of not full explanations...

Not to take this off topic, but when Eccl 12:7 says "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it" And they go on to read things like Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
The reformed believers believe this applies to everyone..... Not to the ones that God did have a purpose for like Jeremiah....

But I digress....
 
Agreed. And part of that with the reformers is truly the fault of what I say are limitations in the bible of not full explanations...

Not to take this off topic, but when Eccl 12:7 says "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it" And they go on to read things like Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
The reformed believers believe this applies to everyone..... Not to the ones that God did have a purpose for like Jeremiah....

But I digress....
In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul used "raised up spiritual body" (

1769614709210.gif
sōma pneumatikoss o bar m a space p n e u m a t i k o s
) to describe an immortal, incorruptible, and resurrected form, rather than a ghost-like or immaterial spirit. It is a tangible body, transformed to be powered by the Holy Spirit instead of natural, perishable life, perfectly suited for eternal life.
Samer physuical body born in and died in, but now transformed and changed
 
You are extrapolating your belief that Jesus has remained a human being, body and all, even now as He is in heaven. You have assumed that in His ascension, He has retained a physical human body. Scripture doesn't say that.
So.... what would it take for you to change your mind? You basically are "extrapolating" yourself. At least by your OWN standards.

If I understand your position, it is basically "I don't know".....

If you don't know then why this nonsense?
 
In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul used "raised up spiritual body" (

View attachment 2804
sōma pneumatikoss o bar m a space p n e u m a t i k o s
) to describe an immortal, incorruptible, and resurrected form, rather than a ghost-like or immaterial spirit. It is a tangible body, transformed to be powered by the Holy Spirit instead of natural, perishable life, perfectly suited for eternal life.
Samer physuical body born in and died in, but now transformed and changed

Good!!!
 
Agreed. And part of that with the reformers is truly the fault of what I say are limitations in the bible of not full explanations...

Not to take this off topic, but when Eccl 12:7 says "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it" And they go on to read things like Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
The reformed believers believe this applies to everyone..... Not to the ones that God did have a purpose for like Jeremiah....

But I digress....

Jeremiah had a good mother. Samuel did too. They changed the mind of God.
 
What do you think about those marks?

Are they marks of shame to Christ? I believe most people think they are. I don't.
I dont either.

I feel shame that he had to suffer for me (us)
 
The very core truth of the gospel is at stake with the Resurrection as per Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 below and other passages which affirm Jesus is still in the flesh now and forever more. Below are my top 12 reasons why directly from Scripture.


1- if Christ is not risen from the dead ( bodily ) your faith is futile
2- if Christ is not Resurrected bodily you are still dead in your sins
3- if Christ is not Raised from the dead bodily you are without hope
4- if Christ is not raised from the dead bodily preaching is useless and so is your faith
5- if Christ is not raised from the dead bodily We are false witnesses
6- if Christ is not raised from the dead we make God a liar
7- The Son/ Word/ God became flesh as per John 1:14
8- The Son is still in the flesh bodily as per Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9
9- The Son remains in the flesh forever, continuously- a completed action in the past ( became flesh) and remains flesh in the present as per 1 John 4:2-3, 2 John 1:7.
10- The gospel message is Jesus died bodily for our sins, was buried bodily for our sins, was raised bodily for our sins giving victory over sin, death and the devil. Ascended into heaven bodily as our High priest who makes intercession for us and will return again bodily at His 2nd Coming.
11- Jesus denied being a spirit, incorporeal. He declared a spirit ( incorporeal ) does not have a body as you see I have, tough and see My flesh and bones.
12- At least a dozen essential/core doctrines of the bible, Christianity, orthodoxy hinge on the Bodily Resurrection/Ascension of Jesus. Ones very salvation/faith does as per Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:14-17.

hope this helps !!!
 
In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul used "raised up spiritual body" (

View attachment 2804
sōma pneumatikoss o bar m a space p n e u m a t i k o s
) to describe an immortal, incorruptible, and resurrected form, rather than a ghost-like or immaterial spirit. It is a tangible body, transformed to be powered by the Holy Spirit instead of natural, perishable life, perfectly suited for eternal life.
Samer physuical body born in and died in, but now transformed and changed
That is the description of the bodies in the resurrection at the end of the age. That is not the description of the bodies of all those raised from the dead here on earth. There are at least 10 people, including Jesus, who are listed in the bible as being raised from the dead. There is no statement and not even a suggestion that those were raised to spiritual bodies.
 
The very core truth of the gospel is at stake with the Resurrection as per Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 below and other passages which affirm Jesus is still in the flesh now and forever more. Below are my top 12 reasons why directly from Scripture.


1- if Christ is not risen from the dead ( bodily ) your faith is futile
2- if Christ is not Resurrected bodily you are still dead in your sins
3- if Christ is not Raised from the dead bodily you are without hope
4- if Christ is not raised from the dead bodily preaching is useless and so is your faith
5- if Christ is not raised from the dead bodily We are false witnesses
6- if Christ is not raised from the dead we make God a liar
7- The Son/ Word/ God became flesh as per John 1:14
8- The Son is still in the flesh bodily as per Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9
9- The Son remains in the flesh forever, continuously- a completed action in the past ( became flesh) and remains flesh in the present as per 1 John 4:2-3, 2 John 1:7.
10- The gospel message is Jesus died bodily for our sins, was buried bodily for our sins, was raised bodily for our sins giving victory over sin, death and the devil. Ascended into heaven bodily as our High priest who makes intercession for us and will return again bodily at His 2nd Coming.
11- Jesus denied being a spirit, incorporeal. He declared a spirit ( incorporeal ) does not have a body as you see I have, tough and see My flesh and bones.
12- At least a dozen essential/core doctrines of the bible, Christianity, orthodoxy hinge on the Bodily Resurrection/Ascension of Jesus. Ones very salvation/faith does as per Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:14-17.

hope this helps !!!
That is simply not true, That is your own particular belief that you are inserting into the scriptures. But you are free to believe whatever makes you feel good.
 
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Personally, I believe that until the creation of this world there was no such thing as the physical. And I am convinced that all things heavenly , in contrast to all things earthly, are not physical. When these heavens and earth are destroyed and the new heavens and earth come there will be no physical there. I believe the "heavenly" describes an existence which is not the earthly physical existence of this world.
 
So.... what would it take for you to change your mind? You basically are "extrapolating" yourself. At least by your OWN standards.

If I understand your position, it is basically "I don't know".....

If you don't know then why this nonsense?
Yes, my position is that it is not a natural, physical, body. It is a spiritual body. I do not know what a spiritual body is and neither do you or anyone else still alive in this world. You and others like to claim that spiritual does not mean incorporeal. And yet corporeal, by definition, means physical. Corporeal, by definition, means consisting of elementary particles, atoms, molecules, chemicals, materials, all ingredients of this natural creation.

You and some others insist that the statement in 1 Tim 2:5 speaking of the one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, means that Jesus is now in heaven still a man with a physical, but gloried, body. Does that mean Jeus is still a male human being? Does that mean the in the resurrection, there will be male spiritual bodies and female spiritual bodies? Why? Jesus said there will be no marriage in heaven. Does it mean that there will be tall spiritual bodies and short spiritual bodies? Will we all be the same? Look the same, think the same act the same, or will we be different. Will we eat and drink. Will we breathe? If so, what will we breathe? Will we breathe air? Will that air be composed mainly of oxygen and nitrogen? Will we walk from place to place? Or will be able to fly with those spiritual corporeal bodies? Will we do physical things with our "corporeal" bodies? Will we be clothed in corporeal clothing? Where will that come from; will we make it or will God simply provide it as He did with Adam and Eve? You can claim we will have "corporeal" bodies, but you can't even begin to describe what that would really be like..

So is that nonsense? Yeah, I think all of that is nonsense. The spiritual body will not be a physical body. The minute you claim that Jesus is still in the physical, but glorified, body that He arose with from the grave, there are thousands of questions that you simply cannot answer or even imagine a rational answer.
 
That is simply not true, That is your own particular belief that you are inserting into the scriptures. But you are free to believe whatever makes you feel good.
it is simply true since Paul spends then entire 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians after defining what the gospel is that saves a person on the bodily Resurrection of Jesus. Its not my belief its what Jesus said about His glorified eternal body as the Firstfruits of the Resurrection and what His disciples taught in their writings.

next fallacy..........

hope this helps !!!
 
What does a physical body now transformed and changed look like if there is not flesh and blood?
There is flesh and bones as Jesus said His body was after His Resurrection.

You are making another FALSE assumption so your question is a fallacious one.

I've debunked your JW "flesh and blood?" argument several times already but for the readers I will do it once again.


1 CORINTHIANS 15:50: “Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”

Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that Jesus could not have risen/ascended in His human body of flesh and bones, because Scripture states that “flesh and blood” cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Notice that Jesus did not say that His resurrected body was made of “flesh and blood.” Rather, He said His body was made of “flesh and bone” (Luke 24:39). This is significant because the term “flesh and blood” is often used in Scripture to refer to mortal humanity,in contrast to the imperishable, resurrected body alluded to by the phrase, “flesh and bones.”

Far from claiming that the resurrected human body cannot inherit God’s kingdom, this passage asserts that the mortal, perishable human body (made of flesh and blood) cannot inherit the immortal, imperishable kingdom of God. Indeed as 1 Corinthians 15:53 states, “this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

A spiritual body denotes an immortal body. A spiritual body is one that is dominated by the spirit, not one that is devoid of matter. The Greek word pneumatikos means a body that is directed by the spirit as opposed to one under the dominion of the flesh. It is not ruled by the flesh that perishes but by the spirit that endures. (1 Corinthians 15:50-58). A spiritual body does no mean immaterial or invisible but immortal and imperishable. Paul makes these parallels:

Earthly- Heavenly (verse 40)
Perishable- Imperishable (verse 42)
Weak- Powerful(verse 43)
Natural-Supernatural(verse 44)
Mortal- Immortal(verse 53)

The content shows that spiritual (pneumatikos) could be translated supernatural in contrast to natural from the parallels of perishable and imperishable, corruptible and incorruptible. Pneumatikos is translated supernatural in 1 Corinthians 10:4 regarding the supernatural rock that followed them in the wilderness. In the translation spiritual refers to physical objects. In 1 Corinthians 10:45 Paul spoke of the spiritual rock that followed Israel in the wilderness from which they got spiritual drink 1 Corinthians 10:4.But the OT story (Exodus 17,Numbers 20)reveals it was a physical rock from which they got literal water to drink. The actual water they drank from the material rock was produced supernaturally. Further Paul spoke about a spiritual man 1 Corinthians 2:15 he obviously did not mean an invisible, immaterial man with no corporeal body. He was as a matter of fact speaking of a flesh and blood human being whose life is lived by the supernatural power of God, a literal person whose life is Spirit directed. A spiritual man is one who is taught by the Spirit and who receives the things that come from the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:13-14). The resurrection body can be called a spiritual body in much the same way we speak of the bible being a spiritual book. Regardless of their spiritual source and power both the resurrection body and the bible are material objects.

Life giving Spirit does not speak of the nature of Christ’s resurrected body but of the divine origin of the resurrection. Jesus physical body came back to life only by the power of God.(Romans 1:4). Paul is speaking about its spiritual source not its physical substance as a material body. If spirit describes the nature of Christ’s resurrected body then Adam with whom He is contrasted must not have a soul since he is described as of the earth, made of dust (verse 47). But the bible clearly says that Adam was a living soul(Genesis 2:7). Christ’s body is called a spiritual body(soma) which always means a physical body when referring to an individual human being. The resurrected body is called spiritual and life giving spirit because its source is in the spiritual realm, not because its substance is immaterial. Christ’s supernatural resurrection body is from heaven as Adams natural body was from the earth. (verse 47). But just as the one from earth has an immaterial soul even so the One from heaven has a material body.

hope this helps !!!
 
it is simply true since Paul spends then entire 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians after defining what the gospel is that saves a person on the bodily Resurrection of Jesus. Its not my belief its what Jesus said about His glorified eternal body as the Firstfruits of the Resurrection and what His disciples taught in their writings.

next fallacy..........

hope this helps !!!
Nah!! What you believe introduces so many unanswerable questions as to be ridiculous.
 
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