A "permanent" jointing of the 2 natures as both God and Man is not any part of the foundation stone of the gospel. You may believe it to be so, but that does not make it so.
Kirk Cameron and annihilationism
- Thread starter civic
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FreeInChrist
Active Member
Hi Jim,
Not to get between you two, but some things you are not considering.
Myself I see the permanent union of Jesus’ divine and human natures is absolutely part of the foundation of the gospel.
I will try to explain.
First, I say, if the union were not permanent , the gospel would collapse.
Why? The gospel is not just that God visited us.... but the fact that God became man forever in order to save man forever.
Heb 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
What this actually means is Jesus did not “put on” humanity temporarily like clothing. He partook of it. He joined Himself to it. And notice... He still has that humanity after the resurrection.
Luke 24:39 “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
That is not temporary humanity. That is glorified humanity.
So what does this mean????? It means He is still a Man in heaven right now. Which is devastating to the idea that the union was temporary.
1 Tim 2:5 tells us....For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Paul wrote this decades after the resurrection and ascension. Jesus is still “the Man Christ Jesus.” Therefore
if His humanity had ended, He could not be our mediator.
The absolute fact of the matter is Our salvation depends on Him staying human. Why? Because what He did in a human body must remain valid forever.
Heb 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. ................This is the same Jesus who was crucified.
Rev 5:6And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
You see Jim, A lamb is a bodily being. And Jesus still bears the marks of His sacrifice.
Now if Jesus stopped being human, the resurrection promise dies, and what an absolutely horrifying thought that is as Our resurrection is based on His resurrection.
1 Cor 15:20 tells us But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
I am sure you understand firstfruits as meaning same kind, and same nature? So if Jesus shed His humanity, then our future bodies would have no model.
The early church called the idea of Jesus being only temporarily human, heresy because it destroys the gospel.
If God only “used” a man, or wore a body for a while, then there was .....
1. No real incarnation
2. No real atonement
3. No real mediator
4. No real resurrection hope
So the statement: “A permanent joining of the two natures is not part of the foundation of the gospel" has to be false.
And the truth is: Jesus is forever God and forever Man = one Person.
That permanent union is the foundation of salvation, mediation, resurrection, and glory.
No it is not. There is absolutely nothing lost in getting rid of that false concept; salvation and all the promises of God to mankind remain in all of the grandeur, magnificence and glory which He presents in His word.
I cannot agree with that, because that would mean that when Jesus said, "It is finished" that would not be true. It would mean that there was still more that Jesus needed to do in order that He could say to us that "you are saved by grace through faith", and instead something more than what has been done is yet to be done. That simply is not true.
The truth remains as state in Hebrews, that man was made a little lower than the angels. Thus Jesus, if He is still a man, is still a little lower than the angels.
Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor, 8 putting everything in subjection under his feet." Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. 9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
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civic
Active Member
Ditto it’s essential
civic
Active Member
This is yet just another fallacious argument.
Lower means in rank. His humanity was lower not His Deity. As a man He functioned “ lower” in that He humbled Himself taking upon Himself the role as a servant, that was the humility / Condescension of the Incarnation. He fulfilled that role as in no longer lower in rank but now His name is above all names, the King of kings, Lord of lords.
Even during His earthly ministry He demonstrated His power over the angels and demons as the angels worshiped Him and the demons were under His power and control as God. You conflate His humiliation with His exaltation.
It is not known for certain who was the author of the book of Hebrews, but whoever it was, when we get to heaven you might want to tell him that he was wrong when he wrote that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. He even said how, precisely that was so. He said, "for the suffering of death". Clearly angels are not like physical human beings that suffer death. Nothing there about the rank of anything or anyone. In fact, additionally, He was, "crowned with glory and honor". Doesn't really sound like lower in rank.
civic
Active Member
I’m lower than the angels as are all humans. It’s a fact of creation. Jesus humiliation was temporal and now He is no longer in that temporal state. That only lasted approximately 33 years.
Maybe this from Ligoneer will help you understand.
Jesus, who fulfills the purpose of man as outlined in Psalm 8, is for a little while made lower than angels (Heb. 2:7). In the Incarnation, Christ was made temporarily lower than the angels because it opens up the possibility of death, something which angels do not suffer. But gloriously, this temporal humiliation will lead to an eternal exaltation — first for Christ and then for His people who will reign with Him.
hope this helps !!!
praise_yeshua
Active Member
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Was Jesus ever condescending? You know that answer already. Why avoid?
Offenses must come. You will not change unless I offend your position. You care about what you believe. I do too. It is who are. We are what we believe or we are nothing but fakes.
Unless you see the wrong in your position, you will not change. When you first start realizing you are wrong, it almost always begins with anger. It doesn't matter how nice you are about it. Being nice about it is fake. Is pretense. It is acting contrarily to your own will. Being true to your will makes everything real.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Did Paul mock the High Priest in Acts 23?
Contending for the faith isn't allowing others to speak evil of the truth. It is why we rebuke and talk of others sin openly. Jesus called the very men he died for fools. Slow to hear. Slow to learn. Paul mocked fools who who denied the resurrection. I have never received you as such but there certainly are times when it is necessary. I've been a fool and needed to know it.
You're being silly in such demands.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Not true. I'm right. Those that are right must show forth the superiority of being right. They must defend being right. There is no way to do this without literally being superior in the position. Your belief is self defeating.
I once felt the same way, I stopped ignoring what good men did to shame those they cared about.
Do you remember the words "I speak this to your shame"?
You're denying the continued priestly work of Christ for all the saints of God of all ages until we all come the the full measure of the work of God for humanity. We are not complete until we are all complete.
That is correct. Jesus is no longer a human.
I don't reject "reject the ability of the Son to save us to the uttermost because he ever lives in the necessity of the human form to be a faithful to our experience".
I reject your false idea that Jesus now lives in the human form.
No, I do not believe He was ever condescending. He corrected the errors of many, He did so without being condescending.
To be condescending is to be patronizing or arrogant. To rebuke or correct another for being wrong is not necessarily being condescending. To be condescending is not a trait of the one who is wrong; rather it is the trait of the one doing the rebuking or correcting.
If you believe any of that, then you will be a terrible teacher, and you should avoid all attempts to bring the gospel to anyone. It is arrogance. If any teacher in the educational system that approached the job of teaching in a condescending manner should be fire immediately.
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