Kirk Cameron and annihilationism

[Jim]

@Jim, good morning.

I think for this discussion we need to leave God out of the talk because only an idiot would think that God has a body. He is spirit, and what His spirit looks like was have no way to know .

But Jesus is God and while on earth He had a corporal, physical human body.

If we defer to the book of Enoch we are told that Enoch does not provide a detailed description of God's appearance, but he mentions seeing God's face and describes God's throne as being surrounded by fire and glory. In 1 Enoch, it is noted that no human can look directly at God due to His splendor and glory.

But we can discuss Jesus because when He walked the earth He had a real body that I believe functioned just like ours.... with a few perks like waling on water, bringing people back from the dead, and feeding multitude.

The miracles that Jesus performed like turning water into wine, healing the lame, raising the dead, etc. He did by the power of the Holy Spirit, same as any other human being that performed miracles.

I was always told, therefore believed that Jesus ascended to heaven in a physical body, and he continues to have a glorified body there. And that His resurrection involved the same physical body that died.

Just another instance that we have all experienced of being told something that was incorrect. We weren't being lied to; it is just that the one telling us was wrong.

Mary saw Him when she was clinging to his feet... but only after she first did not recognize Him, but did recognize His voice.

John
20:13 And they said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him.”

20:14 When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus.

Why do you think she did not recognize Him?
20:15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?” Supposing Him to be the gardener, she said to Him, “Sir, if you have carried Him away, tell me where you have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”
He speaks and she still does not know Him. Possibly her tears were blurring her vision?
20:16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!” She turned and said to Him in Hebrew, “Rabboni!” (which means, Teacher).

If you looked at and heard someone that you had just witnessed be killed and be buried three days earlier, I suspect that you would not let yourself think that you were actually seeing them.

It was His voice she recognized
20:17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
20:18 Mary Magdalene came, announcing to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord,” and that He had said these things to her.
This is all we are told in John and for me I see that something had changed in Jesus' physical appearance for Mary to not recognize Him on sight.
I see that she ran ahead to tell them Jesus would be coming..... but why the delay in his coming, if only for a brief moment or two because he could have walked with her... or being a man could have gotten there first.... ( women understand this) but He had said he was in the process of ascending to the Father...

Just like Thomas, who would not be convinced that Jesus was alive, it would take more than simply seeing someone who looked exactly like the one who died. In Thomas' case it took the nail holes in Jesus' hands and the spear puncture in Jesus' side to convince him that Jesus had indeed risen from the grave. In Mary's case it took the sound of Jesus' voice to convince her.

Vs 17
but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
For me this entire telling says that Jesus was in the process of actually transitioning and when he came back to earth to the men, he was in his glorified body able to walk through closed doors, but was physical enough that Thomas could touch him.....
There are many who will say He appeared to the disciples that very same day. Maybe so. It is just that he told Mary he was ascending and be the same day or not for His appearance to them is of little matter for He was in a body and with them for 40 some days....
What happened after those 40 days..... Acts is clear.

Acts 1:9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

The disciples literally watched Him rise into heaven.

No they did not watch Him rise into heaven. They only saw Him disappear into a cloud.

Acts 1:10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.

Then these two who are assume to be angels explained what it meant:

Acts 1:11 They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

So Jesus: Ascended bodily~Went into heaven~ and Will return the same way
We, you and I are told that we WILL receive "Glorified Bodies"
We receive our glorified bodies at the resurrection, which occurs at the second coming of Christ, not immediately upon death. This means there is a waiting period until that future event when the dead in Christ will rise and be transformed into their eternal bodies.

At our death ( believers) our Spirits go back to God who gave them!!!!!

“We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable,
and we will be changed.”
— 1 Corinthians 15:51–52


That verse tells us exactly when glorified bodies are received:
At the last trumpet, At the resurrection, When Christ returns

Not at death. Not immediately when we go to heaven. But at the resurrection.


Paul says it again even more plainly:

“Our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like His glorious body.”

I do not know, nor can I guess what the new, glorified body is or even why it is needed. I do not care, honestly... but I am comfortable knowing this is a promise to us, and someday, century, or eon it will happen.

I agree with most of that. However, given that Jesus did not have a human body, or any physical body before coming to earth, I am convinced that when he returned again to heaven, He returned to the same glorious "body" that He had before. We cannot know for sure what that really was. But we can be sure that it is nothing like exists in any solid, corporal, physical, earthly state. The is no indication that anything physical exists outside of this physical universe.

1 Cor 15:35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 Fool! What you sow will not come to life unless it dies.37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare seed – perhaps of wheat or something else.

Even today's science says that this physical universe is limited in size and there is nothing to indicate that there is anything physical beyond this universe.

There are those who believe that the "new heavens and new earth" will be God's correction of what happened, i.e., the fall, when Adam sinned and was ejected from the Garden of Eden. I believe that all of what is described has happened to the universe as a result of "the fall" is pure nonsense. God's plan was not interrupted or altered in any way by what Adam did. God's plan was not changed in any way by what Adam did. Adam's sin, while not caused by God, was part and parcel to God's plan. God's plan worked and is working now precisely as He intended at the outset.

There is a reason for and a purpose to why God created this world as He did with all the sin that mankind commits. The sin of Adam, and the sins of all the rest of mankind, is integral with and is absolutely necessary to that reason and that purpose. I believe that is to establish a kingdom of beings who knowingly and willingly love God. I believe that is God's ultimate purpose.

(ESV) Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

The life in this physical body in this physical universe is a test, a test of who will of their own freewill will love God, in spite of all the forces aligned against that.

 

[FreeInChrist]

But Jesus is God and while on earth He had a corporal, physical human body.

The miracles that Jesus performed like turning water into wine, healing the lame, raising the dead, etc. He did by the power of the Holy Spirit, same as any other human being that performed miracles.

Just another instance that we have all experienced of being told something that was incorrect. We weren't being lied to; it is just that the one telling us was wrong.

If you looked at and heard someone that you had just witnessed be killed and be buried three days earlier, I suspect that you would not let yourself think that you were actually seeing them.

Just like Thomas, who would not be convinced that Jesus was alive, it would take more than simply seeing someone who looked exactly like the one who died. In Thomas' case it took the nail holes in Jesus' hands and the spear puncture in Jesus' side to convince him that Jesus had indeed risen from the grave. In Mary's case it took the sound of Jesus' voice to convince her.

No they did not watch Him rise into heaven. They only saw Him disappear into a cloud.

I agree with most of that. However, given that Jesus did not have a human body, or any physical body before coming to earth, I am convinced that when he returned again to heaven, He returned to the same glorious "body" that He had before. We cannot know for sure what that really was. But we can be sure that it is nothing like exists in any solid, corporal, physical, earthly state. The is no indication that anything physical exists outside of this physical universe.

1 Cor 15:35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 Fool! What you sow will not come to life unless it dies.37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare seed – perhaps of wheat or something else.

Even today's science says that this physical universe is limited in size and there is nothing to indicate that there is anything physical beyond this universe.

There are those who believe that the "new heavens and new earth" will be God's correction of what happened, i.e., the fall, when Adam sinned and was ejected from the Garden of Eden. I believe that all of what is described has happened to the universe as a result of "the fall" is pure nonsense. God's plan was not interrupted or altered in any way by what Adam did. God's plan was not changed in any way by what Adam did. Adam's sin, while not caused by God, was part and parcel to God's plan. God's plan worked and is working now precisely as He intended at the outset.

There is a reason for and a purpose to why God created this world as He did with all the sin that mankind commits. The sin of Adam, and the sins of all the rest of mankind, is integral with and is absolutely necessary to that reason and that purpose. I believe that is to establish a kingdom of beings who knowingly and willingly love God. I believe that is God's ultimate purpose.

I believe you are mostly correct on this. Somewhere a while back... 10 or 20 years ago I started to form an idea
that cannot be proved by what anyone has written in the bible so I never pursued it....
And I am not claiming it is the truth, but just like I cannot conceive ot 144 straight hours of creation but can see 6- 24 hour periods that were spaced apart... perhaps not evenly but not one right after the other.... I .... I know you or someone will jump all over me for this idea but when you say " I believe that is to establish a kingdom of beings who knowingly and willingly love God." I agree because I believe creation came about because of the way Lucifer was in heaven and I believe that just like JOB was a basic test subject to prove to Lucifer that Job loved God it is us that has to do so also because of what went between them.
I know that is not said well but it just floats in my head... and is one of the reasons I am certain that predestination as those who believe is wrong, and I believe to prove our love we MUST have free will and chose.

OK..... I am done.....

(ESV) Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

The life in this physical body in this physical universe is a test, a test of who will of their own freewill will love God, in spite of all the forces aligned against that.

 

[civic]

That should tell you that Jesus who is in heaven now is not still in his earthly human body. Nothing material or corporal can be omnipresent.

Jesus while on earth was in heaven- Omnipresent- He is God not limited- fully God- Omni All.

John 3:13
13And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.

next fallacy

 

[civic]

A glorified body IS NOT an earthly body.

The glorified body is incorruptible, immortal, and designed for eternal life in heaven, while the earthly body is subject to decay, weakness, and death. In essence, the glorified body reflects a perfected state free from the limitations and suffering of our current physical existence.

What does the Bible say about glorified bodies?

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What are glorified bodies in the Bible? ►​

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​ What does the Bible say about glorified bodies?​ GLORIFIED BODIES IN SCRIPTURE THE PROMISE OF RESURRECTION Scripture consistently affirms that those who belong to Christ will be raised in glorified bodies. “It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory” (1 Corinthians 15:43). This promise serves as a cornerstone of hope for believers, pointing toward a transformation that transcends mortality. THE MODEL OF CHRIST’S RESURRECTION BODY Jesus’ physical resurrection provides the primary example of what a glorified body looks like. Following His crucifixion, He rose and appeared to His disciples in bodily form (Luke 24:36-39). Yet this body was fundamentally different from a mere resuscitated corpse: “He appeared in another form” (Mark 16:12). After the Resurrection, Jesus could enter locked rooms (John 20:19), and yet He could still eat (Luke 24:42-43). This demonstrates both a real, tangible body and capabilities that go beyond ordinary human limitations. Paul explains that believers are conformed to Christ’s glorified state: “He... will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body” (Philippians 3:21). Because Christ’s resurrected body was free from decay and physical limitations, we anticipate a future body that is imperishable and honor-filled. DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EARTHLY AND GLORIFIED BODIES In 1 Corinthians 15:42-44, Paul contrasts our natural bodies with the glorified bodies we will receive. Our current bodies experience labor, sickness, and sin’s effects, but our future bodies will not. He depicts an imperishable, powerful, and spiritual existence: “It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body” (1 Corinthians 15:44). This “spiritual body” does not mean immaterial; rather, it exists under the direct life-giving power of God’s Spirit. THE TIMING OF RECEIVING A GLORIFIED BODY Believers are resurrected at the return of Christ. Paul explains, “The dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that... we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 excerpt). This indicates that at Christ’s Second Coming, those who have died and those still living will be instantaneously changed and clothed with immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). OLD TESTAMENT AND FUTURE RESURRECTION The Old Testament anticipates a future bodily resurrection. Job declared, “Yet in my flesh I will see God” (Job 19:26 excerpt). Daniel also records a promise of resurrection: “Many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake” (Daniel 12:2 excerpt). These passages foreshadow the hope of being raised in a transformed body, which the New Testament clarifies through Christ’s finished work. ASSURANCE THROUGH CHRIST’S RESURRECTION Multiple lines of early Christian and historical evidence indicate that Jesus’ tomb was found empty, and that His followers had profound experiences of the risen Christ. Researchers across a wide spectrum of belief systems acknowledge the early testimony of Paul (1 Corinthians 15:3-7) as historically reliable. This foundation supports the doctrinal claim of a future resurrection for believers. Because Christ was physically raised, His people can trust that they too will be raised with bodies made new. THE GLORIFIED BODY’S CHARACTERISTICS 1) Imperishable: There will be no sickness, aging, or death. 2) Powerful: Abilities exceed current human limitations, subject to God’s design. 3) Recognizable: Jesus was recognized after His resurrection, though sometimes not immediately (Luke 24:31). 4) Spiritual and Physical: Though glorified, the body is still “bodily,” just as Jesus ate and was touched. IMPLICATIONS FOR DAILY LIFE The promise of a future resurrection body instills hope and motivates holy living. Paul teaches that the knowledge of resurrection steadies believers in hardship: “Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast... your labor in the Lord is not in vain” (1 Corinthians 15:58 excerpt). With a guaranteed victory over death, believers are free to persevere and serve confidently. OBJECTIONS AND CLARIFICATIONS Some question how a physical body can be truly eternal. However, biblical teaching presents God as the all-powerful Creator, fully capable of transforming decay-prone flesh into an everlasting form. This theme aligns with reports of Christ’s miraculous healings and further underscores God’s sovereign ability to restore and renew. Others raise concerns about identity-will each individual remain truly themselves? The scriptural view is that our personal individuality continues in our resurrected state, perfected and made whole in Christ. We see this in Jesus’ post-resurrection appearances: He was identifiable as the same person, yet glorified and no longer bound by mortal weakness. CONCLUSION The Bible’s teaching on glorified bodies reaffirms God’s redemptive plan that extends to both soul and body. Because Christ secured resurrection life through His victory over death, believers look forward to a future body that is imperishable, glorious, and fit for eternal communion with God. This confident expectation not only provides comfort but also lays a foundation for hope, worship, and dedicated service in the present life.​

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Amen

 

[Jim]

A glorified body IS NOT an earthly body.

You are correct. And it is not the body that Jesus was raised with.

The glorified body is incorruptible, immortal, and designed for eternal life in heaven, while the earthly body is subject to decay, weakness, and death. In essence, the glorified body reflects a perfected state free from the limitations and suffering of our current physical existence.

What does the Bible say about glorified bodies?

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That article says:

THE MODEL OF CHRIST’S RESURRECTION BODY
Jesus’ physical resurrection provides the primary example of what a glorified body looks like.

I do not believe that at all. There is nothing described in all of the events that occurred following Jesus' physical resurrection from the grave to suggest any such thing; in fact, it is quite the opposite. Jesus goes to great lengths to show that His risen body is precisely the body that He as crucified with.

As an aside:

In speaking about the resurrection at the end of the age, the Greek word invariably used is ἀνάστασις [anastasis]. But when speaking of Jesus' resurrection [being raised from the dead] Matthew used the Greek word ἔγερσις [egersis] (Matt 27:53). That word comes from ἐγείρω [egeirō] meaning "raised" which is the same as the word used to describe Lazarus' resurrection, his being raised from the dead. Neither Lazarus' body nor Jesus' body is described as being glorified.

Those Greek words for resurrection have similar meanings, but they are not the same. I think the differences were intended.
It is in the "anastasis" resurrection at the end of the age that the body is changed and is nothing like this physical body.

 

[Jim]

Jesus while on earth was in heaven- Omnipresent- He is God not limited- fully God- Omni All.

John 3:13
13And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.

next fallacy

Who is in heaven now and when John wrote his gospel.

 

[civic]

Who is in heaven now and when John wrote his gospel.

Jesus was saying those words in John 3:13 while He was on this earth and simultaneously in heaven, not John. John just recorded them, wrote them down in his gospel.

next fallacious question.............

 

[atpollard]

Jesus is OMNIPRESENT -

Matthew 18:20,

Matthew 28:20

John 3:13
13And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, eventhe Son of man, who is in heaven.

John 1:48, where Jesus tells Nathanael, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you

Point yielded.

... but then Jesus isn't really an example that we can emulate (as I have heard preached from many a pulpit), is he? It is naive to think we can walk in the footsteps of the OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENT, OMNIPRESENT and live as he lived.

 

[civic]

Point yielded.

... but then Jesus isn't really an example that we can emulate (as I have heard preached from many a pulpit), is he? It is naive to think we can walk in the footsteps of the OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENT, OMNIPRESENT and live as he lived.

but we can obey God and walk with Him like Jesus- obedience is a choice we all make every day.
when we are tempted like Jesus was we can call upon the scriptures as our sword of the spirit and use it as a weapon against the enemy as our strength. no weapon formed against thee will prosper.

 

[Jim]

Jesus was saying those words in John 3:13 while He was on this earth and simultaneously in heaven, not John. John just recorded them, wrote them down in his gospel.

next fallacious question.............

The words, who or which is in heaven, do not appear in ESV, NASB, NET, NIV, etd, but only in those, such as the KJV, from the Greek text Textus Receptus. I suggest that may be but one more problem with the Textus Receptus. It seems more that a little strange that Jesus would be saying at the time He was talking that He was really in heaven and that His presence at that time was not a real physical event.

Also @civic, your continued use of things like "next fallacy" and "next fallacious question" are not only very tiring, they a really annoying, obnoxious, egotistical and a bit narcissistic all of which I would hope is not any indication of who and what you really are.

 

[atpollard]

but we can obey God and walk with Him like Jesus- obedience is a choice we all make every day.
when we are tempted like Jesus was we can call upon the scriptures as our sword of the spirit and use it as a weapon against the enemy as our strength. no weapon formed against thee will prosper.

If Jesus did not actually lay aside his OMNI- attributes during his life, but drew upon them daily, then it really does call into question the claim that Jesus was "fully man" and "tempted in every way as we are". This is obviously a "LOGICAL" conclusion rather than a SCRIPTURAL or THEOLOGICAL one [as the Bible is emphatic in its claims] - yet it is a real and self-supporting logical argument based upon your suppositions.

I am merely pointing to the logical consequences of the claim.

 

[civic]

If Jesus did not actually lay aside his OMNI- attributes during his life, but drew upon them daily, then it really does call into question the claim that Jesus was "fully man" and "tempted in every way as we are". This is obviously a "LOGICAL" conclusion rather than a SCRIPTURAL or THEOLOGICAL one [as the Bible is emphatic in its claims] - yet it is a real and self-supporting logical argument based upon your suppositions.

I am merely pointing to the logical consequences of the claim.

He did not use them to His own advantage as Paul points out in Philippians 2. The same passage says He was equal with God ie the Father.

 

[civic]

If Jesus did not actually lay aside his OMNI- attributes during his life, but drew upon them daily, then it really does call into question the claim that Jesus was "fully man" and "tempted in every way as we are". This is obviously a "LOGICAL" conclusion rather than a SCRIPTURAL or THEOLOGICAL one [as the Bible is emphatic in its claims] - yet it is a real and self-supporting logical argument based upon your suppositions.

I am merely pointing to the logical consequences of the claim.

I’m one who believes in Christs Impeccability and the Hypostatic Union answer that question with the 2 natures in Christ. I believe He was fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.

 

[atpollard]

I’m one who believes in Christs Impeccability and the Hypostatic Union answer that question with the 2 natures in Christ. I believe He was fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.

But we are not "impeccable" or "God" ... so what he did we cannot do.

 

[civic]

Philippians 2:5-7 [NASB]
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, as He [already] existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied Himself [by] taking the form of a bond-servant [and] being born in the likeness of men.

I read Philippians 2 as claiming the Son was fully God (lacking nothing in His Deity) before his incarnation and again after his ascension, but "emptied himself" of his "OMNI- attributes" during his life on earth to live FULLY AS A MAN among men (but without sin). Thus he WAS "tempted in every way as we are" and is a High Priest that can understand.

Not me as the name Jesus is His name given at His birth as a man. Its His human name given to Him.

Philippians 2:5-8
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
NIV

These translation capture the meaning of the text in its CONTEXT.


New International Version
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

New Living Translation
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,

New King James Version
but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


Thayers Greek Lexicon
namely, τοῦ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7

Strongs Lexicon
From kenos; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify -- make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.

Louw Nida Greek Lexicon
87.70 κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank.

What Paul makes very clear in this passage is that in addition to being God, He became man. The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature. This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity, assuming the form of a servant in verse 7. The text says He was in the form of God or being in the very nature of God in 2:6. Just as He took upon Himself the "form of a servant" which is a servant by nature, so the "form of God" is God by nature. The word "being" from the phrase: being in the very form of God is a present active participle. This means "continued existence" as God. What Paul is actually saying here is Jesus has always been and still is in the "form of God". If you continue reading the passage Paul really drives this point home so that his readers have no doubt what he is trying to get across to the Philippians. Paul says that every knee will bow and will one day Confess Jesus is LORD. Paul takes the passage in Isaiah 45:23 which clearly refers to Yahweh a name used for God alone and says this of Jesus. The fulfillment of YHWH in Isaiah 45 is none other than Jesus who is God(Yahweh) in the flesh.

Jesus self limited His divine prerogatives via the Incarnation as per Phil 2. In other words did not use them to His advantage but was in submission to the Father for 33 years to accomplish our salvation. All the FULLNESS of DEITY dwells in bodily form. Col 1:19, 2:9. Jesus was and is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Even through Christ existed in the form of God He did not regard equality with God something that He needed to reach for or grasp. Why because it was already His and never gave that up for a millisecond.

Paul is using syllogisms from the text in Philippians 2.

Just as the term “form of God” in verse six does not mean “less than God” because of the phrase “equality with God" in the prior passage.

It goes to reason in the same way with the 2 phrases in the “form of a servant” and in the “likeness of man” in verse seven do not mean that Jesus was any “less than human,” but instead means He was the same or “equal with all humans.”

That is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT ".

In Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily. “Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells (is present) bodily in Jesus.

conclusion:When Jesus came to earth He laid aside or emptied Himself of something. There are many misconceptions at to what He set aside. It was not His Deity. Jesus could not empty Himself of His Deity - He could not stop being God. He was always God the Son. He could not exchange His Deity for His humanity. Neither did He set aside only some of His divine attributes and keep others. In addition, Jesus always knew He was God and possessed these divine attributes - He was not ignorant of who He was or what He could do. Moreover Jesus allowed the people to know that He had such powers. Neither did Jesus set aside the use of His relative attributes such as being all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present. Those powers were always present with Him.When Jesus became a human being He divested Himself of certain rights as God the Son. This can be seen in three ways. First He restricted Himself to a human body with all its limitations. He gave up His position when He became a human being. Second He veiled or hid His glory from the people. Finally, He exercised His relative attributes only by the will of God the Father - never on His own initiative.

hope this helps !!!

 

[atpollard]

Not me as the name Jesus is His name given at His birth as a man. Its His human name given to Him.

Philippians 2:5-8
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
NIV

These translation capture the meaning of the text in its CONTEXT.


New International Version
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

New Living Translation
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,

New King James Version
but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


Thayers Greek Lexicon
namely, τοῦ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7

Strongs Lexicon
From kenos; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify -- make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.

Louw Nida Greek Lexicon
87.70 κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank.

What Paul makes very clear in this passage is that in addition to being God, He became man. The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature. This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity, assuming the form of a servant in verse 7. The text says He was in the form of God or being in the very nature of God in 2:6. Just as He took upon Himself the "form of a servant" which is a servant by nature, so the "form of God" is God by nature. The word "being" from the phrase: being in the very form of God is a present active participle. This means "continued existence" as God. What Paul is actually saying here is Jesus has always been and still is in the "form of God". If you continue reading the passage Paul really drives this point home so that his readers have no doubt what he is trying to get across to the Philippians. Paul says that every knee will bow and will one day Confess Jesus is LORD. Paul takes the passage in Isaiah 45:23 which clearly refers to Yahweh a name used for God alone and says this of Jesus. The fulfillment of YHWH in Isaiah 45 is none other than Jesus who is God(Yahweh) in the flesh.

Jesus self limited His divine prerogatives via the Incarnation as per Phil 2. In other words did not use them to His advantage but was in submission to the Father for 33 years to accomplish our salvation. All the FULLNESS of DEITY dwells in bodily form. Col 1:19, 2:9. Jesus was and is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Even through Christ existed in the form of God He did not regard equality with God something that He needed to reach for or grasp. Why because it was already His and never gave that up for a millisecond.

Paul is using syllogisms from the text in Philippians 2.

Just as the term “form of God” in verse six does not mean “less than God” because of the phrase “equality with God" in the prior passage.

It goes to reason in the same way with the 2 phrases in the “form of a servant” and in the “likeness of man” in verse seven do not mean that Jesus was any “less than human,” but instead means He was the same or “equal with all humans.”

That is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT ".

In Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily. “Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells (is present) bodily in Jesus.

conclusion:When Jesus came to earth He laid aside or emptied Himself of something. There are many misconceptions at to what He set aside. It was not His Deity. Jesus could not empty Himself of His Deity - He could not stop being God. He was always God the Son. He could not exchange His Deity for His humanity. Neither did He set aside only some of His divine attributes and keep others. In addition, Jesus always knew He was God and possessed these divine attributes - He was not ignorant of who He was or what He could do. Moreover Jesus allowed the people to know that He had such powers. Neither did Jesus set aside the use of His relative attributes such as being all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present. Those powers were always present with Him.When Jesus became a human being He divested Himself of certain rights as God the Son. This can be seen in three ways. First He restricted Himself to a human body with all its limitations. He gave up His position when He became a human being. Second He veiled or hid His glory from the people. Finally, He exercised His relative attributes only by the will of God the Father - never on His own initiative.

hope this helps !!!

You changed the comment so I changed the response and we cross-posted.

 

[civic]

You changed the comment so I changed the response and we cross-posted.

lol

 

[civic]

Also @civic, your continued use of things like "next fallacy" and "next fallacious question" are not only very tiring, they a really annoying, obnoxious, egotistical and a bit narcissistic all of which I would hope is not any indication of who and what you really are.

definition of fallacy : a mistaken belief, especially one based on unsound argument. a failure in reasoning which renders an argument invalid. faulty reasoning; misleading or unsound argument.

it has nothing to do with ego but the fact you are lacking a biblical, historical, orthodox view on essential/core doctrines of the historic church dating back to the time of the Apostles and their disciples the dating back to the 1st/2nd century ECF's.

More on fallacies below. A good article I will link containing over 200 of them.

Fallacies​

A fallacy is a kind of error in reasoning. The list of fallacies below contains 231 names of the most common fallacies, and it provides brief explanations and examples of each of them. Fallacious reasoning should not be persuasive, but it too often is.

The vast majority of the commonly identified fallacies involve arguments, although some involve only explanations, or definitions, or questions, or other products of reasoning. Some researchers, although not most, use the term “fallacy” very broadly to indicate any false belief or cause of a false belief. The long list below includes some fallacies of these sorts if they have commonly-known names, but most are fallacies that involve kinds of errors made while arguing informally in natural language, that is, in everyday discourse. https://iep.utm.edu/fallacy/

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

@Jim John 3:13 translations- 28 below that have the son of man who is in heaven


King James Bible
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

New King James Version
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

American Standard Version
And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.
English Revised Version

And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, which is in heaven.
International Standard Version

International Standard Version
"No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Young's Literal Translation
and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

Smith's Literal Translation
And none has ascended to heaven, except he having descended from heaven, the Son of man, he being in heaven.

Literal Standard Version
And no one has gone up to Heaven, except He who came down out of Heaven—the Son of Man who is in Heaven.

Majority Standard Bible
No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man, who is in heaven.

World English Bible
No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.

New Heart English Bible
And no one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.

Webster's Bible Translation
And no man hath ascended to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.

Weymouth New Testament
There is no one who has gone up to Heaven, but there is One who has come down from Heaven, namely the Son of Man whose home is in Heaven.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

Lamsa Bible
No man has ascended to heaven, except he who came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And no man has gone up to Heaven except he who went down from Heaven: The Son of Man - he who is in Heaven.

Anderson New Testament
And no man has ascended into heaven, but he who came down from heaven, the Son of man, who is in heaven.

Godbey New Testament
No one hath ascended up into heaven, but the one having come down from heaven, the Son of man, who is in heaven.

Haweis New Testament
Though no man hath ascended into heaven, except he that descended from heaven, that Son of man the I am in heaven.

Mace New Testament
for no man hath penetrated into the secrets of heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man, who is in heaven.

Worrell New Testament
And no one has ascended into Heaven, but He Who descended out of Heaven—the Son of Man [Who is in Heaven].

Worsley New Testament
For no one hath ascended up into heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.

Geneva Bible of 1587
For no man ascendeth vp to heauen, but he that hath descended from heauen, that Sonne of man which is in heauen.

Bishops' Bible of 1568
And no man ascendeth vp to heauen, but he that came downe from heauen, euen the sonne of man which is in heauen.

Coverdale Bible of 1535
And no man ascendeth vp in to heauen, but he that is come downe from heaue, (namely) the sonne of man which is in heauen.

Tyndale Bible of 1526
And no man ascendeth vp to heaven but he that came doune from heaven that is to saye the sonne of man which is in heaven.

A Faithful Version
(And no one has ascended into heaven, except He Who came down from heaven, even the Son of man, Who is in heaven. )

Darby Bible Translation
And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 3:13 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.
ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 3:13 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort 1881
καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 3:13 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort / [NA27 and UBS4 variants]
καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 3:13 Greek NT: RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανόν, εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ὁ ὢν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ.

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 3:13 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church
καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ὁ ὤν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ.

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 3:13 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Edition
καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ὁ ὢν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ.

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 3:13 Greek NT: Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανόν, εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ὁ ὤν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 3:13 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ὁ ὤν ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ



hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

The words, who or which is in heaven, do not appear in ESV, NASB, NET, NIV, etd, but only in those, such as the KJV, from the Greek text Textus Receptus. I suggest that may be but one more problem with the Textus Receptus.

I suggest these new modern translations are wrong since I provided almost 30 translations that have the son of man who is in heaven.