Kirk Cameron and annihilationism

[TedT]

The "everlasting" fires of Sodom are the strongest biblical evidence that Torment is not Eternal.

The everlasting fire of Sodom defines it starting place, not its nature. if it keeps burning in the outer darkness where the wicked of Sodom were next sent...

The fire of Sodom might go out on earth but if it follows the wicked from Sodom and they are eternal, the fire would be / could be eternal.

 

[Walt]

if hell is figurative then so is heaven since Jesus on many occasions talks about both at the same time.

Yes a good point.
But doesn't Jesus talk in figurative words alongside of words that are not figurative?

Luke 9:60
New International Version
Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” 61 Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.” 62 Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”

Matthew 10:34
Berean Literal Bible
Do not think that I came to bring peace to the earth; I came not to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set at variance 'A man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, 36 and the enemies of the man are his own household.' 37 The one loving father or mother above Me is not worthy of Me, and the one loving son or daughter above Me is not worthy of Me.

 

[civic]

Yes a good point.
But doesn't Jesus talk in figurative words alongside of words that are not figurative?

Luke 9:60
New International Version
Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” 61 Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.” 62 Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”

Matthew 10:34
Berean Literal Bible
Do not think that I came to bring peace to the earth; I came not to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set at variance 'A man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, 36 and the enemies of the man are his own household.' 37 The one loving father or mother above Me is not worthy of Me, and the one loving son or daughter above Me is not worthy of Me.

yes He sure does and of course the obvious answer is the context will determine whether its figurative, literal or a combination of both.

 

[Walt]

yes He sure does and of course the obvious answer is the context will determine whether its figurative, literal or a combination of both.

I agree with your line of reasoning I think this is probably the hardest subject to prove, because when one person believes that the wicked are destroyed and they don't get life in the first place, they vanish and disappear, this agrees with the Bible throughout but disagrees with being tormented day and night forever, which is also in the Bible.

The person that believes that the wicked are tormented day and night forever, must also disagree with other Bible texts.

So with whatever decision a person makes it looks like to me there is scripture disagreement and agreement for both. What would you say?


* I can post the scriptures that show that the wicked are: to be cut off, like a dream he flies away, no more to be found, banished like a vision of the night, to disappear like smoke nowhere to be found, to perish, will not get life, be destroyed, the soul and the body are both destroyed in hell, indeed, the lamp of the wicked is extinguished, but even with all this the Bible says, it still says: they will be tormented day and night forever.

 

[civic]

Here is the last paragraph from the Athanasian Creed

He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

Now notice the parallelism

Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

The 2 distinct groups will enter into 2 distinct places eternally- without end

1- eternal life which is in the presence of God and the redeemed forever and ever which is the meaning of eternal, it never ends
2- eternal fire away fromm the presence of God for the wicked with the devil and his angels forever and ever, it never ends.

What did Jesus say about that place ?

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

What did Peter say about this place :

to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment,while continuing their punishment.

What did Jude say about this place :

They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

What did John say about this place:

They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Jay]

" Kirk Cameron's recent controversies center on his questioning of traditional Christian hell doctrine (leaning towards annihilationism, where the wicked cease to exist rather than suffer eternally) "

" A number of commentators have responded, such as Southern Baptist Seminary President Al Mohler, in an essay for the WORLD News Group. Dr. Mohler believes that Kirk Cameron’s move towards the doctrine of conditional immortality is a slippery slope towards other areas of compromise in Christian doctrine, whereby Cameron has allowed emotional concerns to overwhelm a commitment to historic Christian orthodoxy. "


Annihilationism is the belief that unbelievers will not experience an eternity of suffering in hell but will instead be “extinguished” or annihilated after death. Annihilationism is an attractive belief to many because of the awfulness of the idea of people spending eternity in hell. While there are some passages that seem to support annihilationism, a comprehensive look at what the Bible says about the destiny of the wicked reveals that punishment in hell is eternal. A belief in annihilationism results from a misunderstanding of the consequences of sin, the justice of God, and/or the nature of hell.

In relation to the nature of hell, annihilationists misunderstand the meaning of the lake of fire. Obviously, if a human being were cast into a lake of burning lava, he or she would be almost instantly consumed; however, the lake of fire is both a physical and spiritual realm. The punishment is not simply of a human body; it is of a human’s body, soul, and spirit. A spiritual nature cannot be consumed by physical fire. It seems that the unsaved are resurrected with a body fit for eternity just as the saved are (Revelation 20:13; Acts 24:15). These bodies are prepared for an eternal fate.

Eternity is another point of contention. Annihilationists are correct that the Greek word aionion, which is usually translated “eternal,” does not by definition mean “eternal.” It refers to an “age” or “eon,” a specific period of time. In some passages, however, aionion is without question used to refer to an eternity. Revelation 20:10 speaks of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire and being “tormented day and night forever and ever.” These three are not “extinguished” by being cast into the lake of fire, but their torment goes on forever. Why would the fate of the unsaved, who are also thrown into the lake of fire, be any different (Revelation 20:14–15)?

One evidence for the eternality of hell is Matthew 25:46: “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” In this verse, the same Greek word is used to refer to the destiny of the wicked and the righteous. If the wicked are only tormented for an “age,” then the righteous will only experience life in heaven for an “age.” If believers will be in heaven forever, unbelievers will be in hell forever.

Another frequent objection raised by annihilationists to the eternality of hell is that it would be unjust for God to punish people eternally for a finite amount of sin. How could it be fair for God to take a person who lived 70 years in sin, and punish him or her for all eternity? The answer is that our sin bears an infinite consequence because it is committed against an infinitely holy God. When King David committed the sins of adultery and murder, he prayed, “Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight” (Psalm 51:4). God is an eternal and infinitely glorious being. Our sin, an affront to infinite worth and eternal glory, warrants an infinite and eternal punishment. The consequence is proportional to the value of the thing targeted. What matters is not the length of time we sinned, but the value of the character of the God we sinned against.

More personally, annihilationism puts forward the idea that we could not possibly be happy in heaven if we knew that some of our loved ones were suffering an eternity of torment in hell. Scripture says, however, that we will not have anything to complain about or be saddened by in the eternal state. God will “‘will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away” (Revelation 21:4). If some of our loved ones are not in heaven, we will be in complete agreement that they do not belong there and that they are condemned by their own refusal to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior (see John 3:18; 14:6). It is hard to understand this, but we will not be saddened by the lack of their presence. Our focus now should not be on how we can enjoy heaven without our loved ones but on how we can point our loved ones to faith in Christ so they will be with us.

Hell is perhaps a primary reason why God sent Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sins. Being “extinguished” after death is no fate to dread, but an eternity in hell is. Jesus’ death paid our infinite sin debt so we would not have to pay it in hell for eternity (2 Corinthians 5:21). When we place our faith in Him, we are saved, forgiven, cleansed, and promised an eternal home in heaven. But if we reject God’s gift of eternal life, we will face the eternal consequences of that decision.got?

lets discuss

hope this helps !!!

The wicked will cease to exist for us. We will never think about them.

He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; grief, crying, and pain will be no more, because the previous things have passed away. Revelation 21:4

If someone we loved that were never saved and we knew they were in hell, Revelation 21:4 would not hold true.

Once the physical universe is cleansed and God creates new heavens and a new earth, all vestiges of the original curse and Satan’s presence will be utterly and forever removed. There will be a massive environmental change. We will instantly transition from an environment of pain, suffering, darkness, and death to a new environment of God-focused blessedness.

In Revelation 20:10, the apostle John describes Satan’s banishment. “The devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” Notice three primary factors here:

1. The place of confinement is the lake of fire—a synonym for hell.
2. The duration of confinement is “day and night forever and ever.”
3. The punishment in this confinement is torment.

Let us be clear that Satan will never be released from the lake of fire. He is consigned to hell without possibility of redemption or release. After we’ve been in heaven with Christ for 100 billion years, Satan and all who never accepted Jesus will still be confined in the lake of fire, and there he will forever remain.

 

[Walt]

The Bible explains differently for the word destroyed. / but the Bible never explains that people are alive somehow when destroyed.

 

[atpollard]

Here is the last paragraph from the Athanasian Creed

He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

Now notice the parallelism

Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

The 2 distinct groups will enter into 2 distinct places eternally- without end

1- eternal life which is in the presence of God and the redeemed forever and ever which is the meaning of eternal, it never ends
2- eternal fire away fromm the presence of God for the wicked with the devil and his angels forever and ever, it never ends.

What did Jesus say about that place ?

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

What did Peter say about this place :

to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment,while continuing their punishment.

What did Jude say about this place :

They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

What did John say about this place:

They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Note that the CREED says “eternal fire” (so the fire is eternal) but it does not say “eternal suffering” (so a “Christian” is not required to believe that the “conscious torment” is eternal).

While I agree that other verses of scripture seem to indicate “eternal torment” for the unsaved, I was merely pointing out that the CREEDS are not explicit in that as a condition to be a “Christian”. As I pointed out, scripture also draws a parallel with the Sodom and the “eternal fire” but Sodom is not still burning, so men like Martin Luther (among others) have embraced a final punishment ending in the death of evil rather than its eternal existence and torture. The CREEDS do not make them “heretics”, so long as they do not deny the “eternal fire”.

 

[civic]

Note that the CREED says “eternal fire” (so the fire is eternal) but it does not say “eternal suffering” (so a “Christian” is not required to believe that the “conscious torment” is eternal).

While I agree that other verses of scripture seem to indicate “eternal torment” for the unsaved, I was merely pointing out that the CREEDS are not explicit in that as a condition to be a “Christian”. As I pointed out, scripture also draws a parallel with the Sodom and the “eternal fire” but Sodom is not still burning, so men like Martin Luther (among others) have embraced a final punishment ending in the death of evil rather than its eternal existence and torture. The CREEDS do not make them “heretics”, so long as they do not deny the “eternal fire”.

the verses I quoted from the bible says its both eternal and conscious.

 

[atpollard]

the verses I quoted from the bible says its both eternal and conscious.

Which changes NOTHING about the CREED and what it REQUIRES to be called a “Christian” (the purpose of a creed).

 

[civic]

Which changes NOTHING about the CREED and what it REQUIRES to be called a “Christian” (the purpose of a creed).

so you are saying the creed doesn't understand eternal punishment for the wicked , what else did they get wrong ?

 

[civic]

The Testimony of Church History

I previously wrote of 11 figures who share the consensus that the wicked will suffer endless punishment—Tertullian, Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Edwards, Wesley, Francis Pieper, Louis Berkhof, Lewis Sperry Chafer, and Millard Erickson:

The figures…hail from various countries, inhabit diverse periods in church history, and represent major branches of the Church. It is significant, then, that in spite of their great diversity, these theologians agree on the subject of hell’s duration.

This consensus leads us to ask an important question: Is it possible that these eleven figures are wrong on the topic of hell? It is possible, but highly unlikely! In fact, I cannot think of even one doctrinal issue in which they all are in error. It is not that they agree on every detail of theology; they differ in their understanding of baptism and of the millennium, to choose two examples. But on basic aspects of the Christian faith they are united—and one of those aspects is eternal punishment.2

This then places the burden of proof on those who break with Church tradition and espouse conditionalism. The testimony of historical theology, however, is not the fundamental reason why I believe in endless punishment.

IMPLICATIONS OF OUR STUDY

Although I respect the powerful witness of Christian history to traditionalism, and am impressed by arguments from systematic theology, at the end of the day, I appeal to a higher authority than history or theology. I am convinced that a straightforward exposition of these five scriptural passages (and more) confirms the thesis that the sufferings of hell consist in everlasting conscious punishment. Jesus, Paul, and John teach that the suffering of the lost in hell will know no end.

Sinclair Ferguson is right: it is our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who spoke most clearly of the dark side of eternity. To be faithful to Him, we must do the same.

See the full article here :

The Dark Side of Eternity: Hell as Eternal Conscious Punishment | Christian Research Institute

www.equip.org

 

[atpollard]

so you are saying the creed doesn't understand eternal punishment for the wicked , what else did they get wrong ?

You misspeak. Not addressing a topic is not “getting it wrong”. Did they get Free Will wrong because they never mentioned it? Did they get infant baptism wrong? What about Supra vs Infra lapsarianism?

I am saying that the CREEDS define “orthodoxy” (nothing more and nothing less), making that which contradicts the creeds “heretical” (by definition) and that which is optional, but not contradictory, “heterodox” (by definition). I am saying that ECT and Annihilation are not an orthodox/heretic issue (just as “infant baptism” is not an issue covered by the creeds).

 

[civic]

You misspeak. Not addressing a topic is not “getting it wrong”. Did they get Free Will wrong because they never mentioned it? Did they get infant baptism wrong? What about Supra vs Infra lapsarianism?

I am saying that the CREEDS define “orthodoxy” (nothing more and nothing less), making that which contradicts the creeds “heretical” (by definition) and that which is optional, but not contradictory, “heterodox” (by definition). I am saying that ECT and Annihilation are not an orthodox/heretic issue (just as “infant baptism” is not an issue covered by the creeds).

I disagree the athanasian you quoted affirms ECT. That’s my point . It calls the punishment eternal not temporal or conditional in the same way it describes eternal life.

Is eternal life ending and at some point or with unconscious existence?

 

[Walt]

In my opinion one of these scriptures might be figurative language, I have no clue as to which one or if any of them is figurative, I think it's up to each person to decide, what do you think?

Eternal Torment - Revelation 14:11, 20:10; Matthew 25:46
Will not see life - John 3:36, Matthew 7:14
Destroy both soul and body in hell - Matthew 10:28
Will disappear nowhere to be found - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
Eternal Destruction - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
Detestable things to God. nor did it enter my mind.- Deuteronomy 12:31; Jeremiah 7:31; 2 Kings 17:17

 

[atpollard]

I disagree, the athanasian you quoted affirms ECT. That’s my point . It calls the punishment eternal not temporal or conditional in the same way it describes eternal life.

Is eternal life ending and at some point or with unconscious existence?

The Athanasian Creed states …

Those who have done good will enter eternal life,​

and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.​

Only GOOD talk about eternal life, you are adding “eternal life of torment” to EVIL when the Creed only states “will enter eternal fire” (the FIRE is eternal). Belief in DEATH by ETERNAL FIRE meets the requirement of the Creed to be a “Christian”. Belief in ECT by ETERNAL FIRE meets the requirement of the Creed to be a “Christian”.

 

[civic]

The Athanasian Creed states …

Those who have done good will enter eternal life,​

and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.​

Only GOOD talk about eternal life, you are adding “eternal life of torment” to EVIL when the Creed only states “will enter eternal fire” (the FIRE is eternal). Belief in DEATH by ETERNAL FIRE meets the requirement of the Creed to be a “Christian”. Belief in ECT by ETERNAL FIRE meets the requirement of the Creed to be a “Christian”.

The eternal fire was created for the wicked according to scripture

 

[atpollard]

The eternal fire was created for the wicked according to scripture

According to the Athanasian Creed as well (“those who have done evil”).
[Of course, some Scripture says the fire was created for the Devil and fallen angels.]

 

[Walt]

If anyone has any advice please let me know, this seems like a reasonable conclusion to me, what is your advice please?

Would you consider it wrong of me if I considered these words 100% Accurate?
"Destroy both soul and body in hell" - Matthew 10:28
"Will disappear nowhere to be found" - Psalm 37:10, 37:35-36; Isaiah 41:12
"Eternal Destruction" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9
"the wicked will be cut off from the earth" - Proverbs 2:22
"Will not see life" - John 3:36
"Eternal punishment" - Matthew 25:46
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love". - 1 John 4:8 (NIV):

And these words are Symbolic?
"The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" - Revelation 14:11
[ How is this painful? "smokey torment ascending forever and ever"? ]
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Revelation 20:10, James 3:6
[ At Revelation 20:10 it sounds like it's talking about the Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet, doesn't it to you? ]

 

[civic]

According to the Athanasian Creed as well (“those who have done evil”).
[Of course, some Scripture says the fire was created for the Devil and fallen angels.]

ditto