Justice "served" in the Atonement?

[Dizerner]

This is contrary to the Scriptures.

No, it's not. You just can't read Scripture properly.

Eve being deceived does not logically equal Eve being in charge.

Oh, but you don't care about rules of logic, I remember now.

Adam was IN CHARGE. Eve was targeted to appeal to Adam's passivity and idolatry of Eve.

Nobody held a gun to Adam's head, and he was definitely stronger than Eve, although she would do what he said.

But you just rewrite things however they tickle your fancy.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No, it's not. You just can't read Scripture properly.

Eve being deceived does not logically equal Eve being in charge.

I can read just fine.

Here it is again. YOU read it again.

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Oh, but you don't care about rules of logic, I remember now.

Adam was IN CHARGE. Eve was targeted to appeal to Adam's passivity and idolatry of Eve.

So Adam loved Eve. I agree. Notice what Jesus said about LOVING....relative to idolatry....

Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Do you notice how wife isn't there?

Lets add the "wife" part....

Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Nobody held a gun to Adam's head, and he was definitely stronger than Eve, although she would do what he said.

But you just rewrite things however they tickle your fancy.

Adam willing sinned. He wasn't deceived. He knew exactly what he was doing. Eve was deceived.

So read it again....
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

So.... should Adam have abandoned Eve? Did Adam have a right to put Eve away?

You're not seeing what is there.

This "sense of justice" you have is rather shallow.

 

[Studyman]

But Christ had no sin so why would He have died of old age? Are you one who contends that physical death was always intended by God? That sin was not necessary for death to enter?

Gen. 6: 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

1 Cor. 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But "every man" in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Jesus was a flesh and blood mortal human. He felt pain, He dealt with emotions, He "Grew older", like all men. He was subject to death, as "ALL Men". Yet HE was faithful to His Father in all things, even unto death, and became the "First man" to die and be raised into an incorruptible body.

At least this is what the Bible teaches.

"cursed is the ground for thy (Adam's) sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return".

The mortal man Jesus was always destined to die, like all men. That is the most awesome thing about Him, in my view. He was an immortal Spirit, the Lord's Christ who fed and watered Noah, Abraham and the Children of Israel. And HE risked immortality, HE "laid down" His immortal life", trusting completely in His Father who sent Him, so that we could be reconciled to God, His Father and my Father, the God and Father of all. He risked His Own Life for me. That is why I take what HE actually says to "Do" so seriously. No one has ever Loved me that much. In fact, there is no greater Love that even exists.

There are "Many", who "come in Christ's Name", who preach that He, "Jesus", is truly the Prophesied Christ and yet promote the philosophy that HE wasn't a mortal flesh and blood man. That He didn't risk or "lay down" His immortal Life for me or anyone. That HE overcomes the temptations of this world because HE was Immortal God. That when the going got tough for Him as it does for all mortal humans, HE just kicked in God Powers no mortal human has ever had access to and overcame the temptation of this world in this way. It's horribly demeaning and insulting to him and His father who sent Him. Jesus and His Apostles His Father gave Him, warned not to be deceived by this world's "many" who call Him Lord, Lord.

The Lord's Christ came in the Flesh and overcame sin by Faith, as defined in the Scriptures. Don't listen to the "other voices" in the garden God placed you in. Listen to Jesus and become a "Doer" of His sayings. I don't believe there is any other way to "Endure to the end", at least, according to Scriptures.

 

[Studyman]

No, it's not. You just can't read Scripture properly.

Eve being deceived does not logically equal Eve being in charge.

Oh, but you don't care about rules of logic, I remember now.

Adam was IN CHARGE. Eve was targeted to appeal to Adam's passivity and idolatry of Eve.

I'm trying to follow you here. Yes, Adam was the Head of the Wife. Just as Jesus is the Head of God's Church. Are you then teaching that the Wife/church choosing to listen to and "Yield herself" a servant to obey "another voice" in the garden God placed her in, is the Head of the Wifes fault? That Eve's choice to reject God's Judgments was the result of Adams "passivity"?

It seems, according to what is actually written, Adam was punished for the passivity of his own idolatry, not Eve's.

What is the Head of the Wife supposed to do then? Blindfold her and plug her ears and tie her up to make sure she doesn't make a bad choice because her choice is a reflection of his heart?

Is that God's intended lesson we are to learn from this story?

And according to what God actually said, "And unto Adam he said, "Because" thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life"

What does it matter "who" gave him the fruit? Is he any less guilty if the serpent had been the one giving him the forbidden fruit and he did eat of it?

Nobody held a gun to Adam's head, and he was definitely stronger than Eve, although she would do what he said.

I think this is true. Had Adam stayed Faithful to God, and demanded of Eve that she immediately Repent of her sin, and prayed to God for mercy, even offering himself to God on behalf of his wife, wouldn't that be the right approach? I mean, isn't that what the 2nd Adam did?

But you just rewrite things however they tickle your fancy.

You are certainly right about this, no argument from me here.

This is really a great topic though, and it seems good that men have open honest discussions about these things as they "Seek the righteousness of God".

 

[Dizerner]

What is the Head of the Wife supposed to do then?

You act like it's some great inconceivable mystery, lol.

"Don't do that! Put that fruit down! Step awayyy from the tree!"

Oh, that was really hard to figure out, I don't know how I did it.

Nobody is saying isn't wasn't wrong for Eve to be doing what she did, but she did not have the ultimate authority.

 

[Studyman]

You act like it's some great inconceivable mystery, lol.

"Don't do that! Put that fruit down! Step awayyy from the tree!"

No, I'm simply working to understand God's Message to me through this story.

So then because Adam wasn't overseeing Everything, Every move, Every second of Eve's life, it's his fault that Eve sinned?

In God's Garden, wasn't the wife responsible for anything she does? This would mean then, that it's God's Fault that both Adam and Eve Sinned, "Because" HE wasn't Standing over them telling them "Don't do that! Put the fruit down! Step away from the tree!" Then it would be Jesus' Fault that Judas betrayed Him, accord to this philosophy. I mean Jesus didn't "Stop" him from making his choice, and HE could have. This would mean it's Jesus' Fault that Judas killed himself.

I don't believe that is what God wants me to learn from this story.

If I'm misunderstanding your words, please show me where.

Oh, that was really hard to figure out, I don't know how I did it.

Now Dizerner, you are starting to act like the author of this thread. I have been pulled into the same behavior, to my own shame. But there is no reason for this kind of discourse between us, we are just examining Scriptures and discussing to understand them, Yes?

Nobody is saying isn't wasn't wrong for Eve to be doing what she did, but she did not have the ultimate authority.

I'm trying to follow you here, but I am just a dumb cowboy, so please be patient. Didn't Eve herself know what she did was wrong, according to what is written in Scriptures? Are you saying Eve was not given the Authority to choose who to listen to or who to obey? Or that she didn't have authority to give Adam the fruit?

I've carefully gone over your posts, and it seems like you are accusing Adam of letting Eve Sin or of not stopping Eve from sinning.

But when I read what is actually written in Scriptures, God didn't blame or punish Adam at all for anything Eve did. Only for rejecting God's Judgments himself.

If I am understanding this story wrong, then show me in Scriptures how this is so. I am only seeking God's Righteousness here. I have no other agenda.

 

[Johann]

No, I'm simply working to understand God's Message to me through this story.

So then because Adam wasn't overseeing Everything, Every move, Every second of Eve's life, it's his fault that Eve sinned?

In God's Garden, wasn't the wife responsible for anything she does? This would mean then, that it's God's Fault that both Adam and Eve Sinned, "Because" HE wasn't Standing over them telling them "Don't do that! Put the fruit down! Step away from the tree!" Then it would be Jesus' Fault that Judas betrayed Him, accord to this philosophy. I mean Jesus didn't "Stop" him from making his choice, and HE could have. This would mean it's Jesus' Fault that Judas killed himself.

I don't believe that is what God wants me to learn from this story.

If I'm misunderstanding your words, please show me where.


Now Dizerner, you are starting to act like the author of this thread. I have been pulled into the same behavior, to my own shame. But there is no reason for this kind of discourse between us, we are just examining Scriptures and discussing to understand them, Yes?



I'm trying to follow you here, but I am just a dumb cowboy, so please be patient. Didn't Eve herself know what she did was wrong, according to what is written in Scriptures? Are you saying Eve was not given the Authority to choose who to listen to or who to obey? Or that she didn't have authority to give Adam the fruit?

I've carefully gone over your posts, and it seems like you are accusing Adam of letting Eve Sin or of not stopping Eve from sinning.

But when I read what is actually written in Scriptures, God didn't blame or punish Adam at all for anything Eve did. Only for rejecting God's Judgments himself.

If I am understanding this story wrong, then show me in Scriptures how this is so. I am only seeking God's Righteousness here. I have no other agenda.

What I appreciate is that you approach this with a genuine desire for truth, without any hidden agendas or insinuations. Unfortunately, some here tend to be overly defensive and sensitive.

Great job!

J.

 

[Studyman]

What I appreciate is that you approach this with a genuine desire for truth, without any hidden agendas or insinuations. Unfortunately, some here tend to be overly defensive and sensitive.

Great job!

J.

I battle with that same guy in myself as well. I think we are taught by the course of this world to "Seek Justification" as opposed to Seeking God's Wisdom or Seeking God's Righteousness.

Thank you for your encouraging words.