Runningman
Active Member
John narrated about what Jesus was doing. You are confused.
Jesus doesn't share God's exclusive glory
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
Revelation 5:13 isn't going away.
Runningman
Active Member
Good, add it to the list of examples where the Lamb is not sharing the exclusive glory of He who sits on the throne. The Lamb is at the right hand of the throne.
civic
Active Member
The flesh of Jesus veils the glory of God
When Jesus was transfigured on the mountain, we read, “His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light.”What happened is that Jesus temporarily allowed His Divine nature to be expressed and let His glory radiate. This is why both John and Peter refer to that event and associate it with seeing the glory and majesty of God.
For instance, when John writes about this event, he says:
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).
He is here referring to seeing the glory of Jesus revealed on the mountain. What is important is that though this was a temporary event, it was a taste of what living in the New Jerusalem will be like.
John shares his vision of of the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21:10, 11, where we read:
“And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal.”
He goes on to say in Revelation 22:5: “There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light.”
What is to be stressed here is that in the New Jerusalem, God’s glory will be present and expressed with all its fullness. Redeemed humanity will be able to stand it because they will be in their glorified state.
Until then, man cannot withstand being in the full presence of God’s glory.
Thus, as Jesus was on the earth, He had to restrain the full expression of His glory, and His flesh was the veil that covered His glory from man.To further develop this idea, we can think of Moses who was also on a mountain where the glory of God was revealed. In Exodus 33, Moses asks God to show His glory. God’s response was that Moses could not see His face and live. We read:
“But He said, ‘You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.’ And the Lord said, “Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.’”
Notice that Moses was covered while God’s glory passed by. Moses eventually got his request not on Mount Sinai, but on the Mount of Transfiguration as he conversed with Jesus and Elijah. As Moses came down to the camp, his face shone from the encounter, which led to Moses putting a veil over his face as he conversed with the people.
Commenting on this, Paul says in 2 Corinthians 3 that the children of Israel were not able to look at Moses’ face because he was reflecting the glory of God. Even though it was a mere reflection and a fading one at that. He then goes on to say in verse 18:
“But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
In Christ, the veil is removed, and we see God’s glory as it is revealed in and through Jesus, who is the brightness of His glory and express image of His person (Hebrews 1:3).
John also tells us that Jesus reveals God’s glory and the Father. In His introduction, he plays heavily on the theme of light. This is because He is seeking to draw our minds to the glorious light of God’s nature. This light he says, is Jesus. Then, in the span of five verses, he associates Jesus with the glory of God and manifestation of the Father.
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).
“No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him” (John 1:18).
Moses was not allowed to see God and live.
Yet in Christ, we are allowed to see God and live.
All because Jesus clothed and united Himself to us in adding flesh to His person. Remember our verse in Hebrews tells us that the flesh of Jesus is a veil.The immediate reference is to the temple veil. It is as this veil torn, that we are able to see what it hides, namely the glory of God in the holy place where God sits enthroned between the cherubim.
It is the tearing of this veil of His flesh that we will take up in our next reflection.
In closing, I invite you to reflect on the following statement. God who dwells in unapproachable light has come near to us in the humanity of His Son Jesus as one of us. Sharing in our flesh.Keith Fortenberry
hope this helps !!!
Runningman
Active Member
You have refuted nothing. The Bible only speaks of Christians sharing glory with Jesus and the glory Jesus was given was given to his disciples. There are no examples of Jesus sharing God's exclusive glory.
Your arguments are as nothing.
Runningman
Active Member
I will take that as another one of your public defeats. You quoted one verse where the Lamb isn't He on the throne and that's it. The Bible is bankrupt of examples of Jesus sharing the same exclusive glory as God. You learned something today. No need to admit it publicly, but I know the seed was planted.
Runningman
Active Member
I want to hear from every Trinitarian on this board. Please show me one example of Jesus sharing God's exclusive glory.
civic
Active Member
wrong try reading Revelation more carefully.
next FALLACY.
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
same heaven, same throne.
Rev 22
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb ;down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
next fallacy/question
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
Simplified 
for the readers to understand the plain meaning of the text
Revelation 22:3- There will no longer be any curse. The throne of God and the lamb will be in the city
One Throne with God and the Lamb on it.
Revelation 22:1- Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
for the readers to understand the plain meaning of the textRevelation 22:3- There will no longer be any curse. The throne of God and the lamb will be in the city
One Throne with God and the Lamb on it.
Revelation 22:1- Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
civic
Active Member
The Throne in Isaiah worshipping the SON who is YHWH
Isa 6:1-7
I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. 2Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called out to another and said,
"Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,
The whole earth is full of His glory."
4And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. 5Then I said,
"Woe is me, for I am ruined!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."
6Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs. 7He touched my mouth with it and said, "Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven."
John 12:41-42
These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. We see that the Apostle John said that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus in Isaiah 6 for this was the one and only time Isaiah was in the presence of Yahweh.
In Romans 10:9-10, we see that Christians will confess that Jesus is Lord. The context through verse 13 clearly shows that Jesus is the Lord which all men must call on in order to be saved. Paul quotes from Joel 2:32 to make his point.Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved (verse 13). If you read Joel 2:32 one can see that Paul quoted from this verse. When we look at the OT passage salvation comes to those who call on the name of YHWH ie...the Divine name of Israel for God. Paul declares it is Jesus upon whom we must call on in order to be saved.
In Philippians 2:9-11, we read that Jesus has a name that is above every name that at His name every knee should bow and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Paul bases his statements on Isaiah 45:23, where we read (By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before Me every knee will bow; by Me every tongue will swear .In the context this is clearly YHWH speaking of Himself. He is the Lord who says there is no God apart from Me in verse 21.Paul does not hesitate in saying that every knee will bow to Jesus and every tongue will confess Jesus is YHWH.
It is an indisputable fact that Paul said God bestowed the Name “Yahweh” on Jesus because in Philippians 2: 9-11 he was quoting Isaiah 45: 21-24.
This is what Yahweh told Isaiah:
“And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none except Me. Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the Word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance, they will say of Me, ‘Only in Yahweh are righteousness and strength.’ Men will come to Him and all who were angry with Him shall be put to shame.”
Isaiah 43: 11- Yahweh said that He is our only Savior- Even I Am Yahweh and there is no other Savior besides Me. This verse is very clear as to its meaning.
We see that Yahweh is the Name God bestowed on Jesus and it is Yahweh which is the Name that is above every name and it is Yahweh to which every knee will bow. There is no mistaking that Paul declares in his epistles that Jesus is the Yahweh of the Hebrew Scriptures. Jesus is our Lord Yahweh in the New Testament as well as our Savior. These were the specific names that were Gods alone in the Old Testament.
hope this helps !!!
Isa 6:1-7
I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. 2Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called out to another and said,
"Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,
The whole earth is full of His glory."
4And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. 5Then I said,
"Woe is me, for I am ruined!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."
6Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs. 7He touched my mouth with it and said, "Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven."
John 12:41-42
These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. We see that the Apostle John said that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus in Isaiah 6 for this was the one and only time Isaiah was in the presence of Yahweh.
In Romans 10:9-10, we see that Christians will confess that Jesus is Lord. The context through verse 13 clearly shows that Jesus is the Lord which all men must call on in order to be saved. Paul quotes from Joel 2:32 to make his point.Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved (verse 13). If you read Joel 2:32 one can see that Paul quoted from this verse. When we look at the OT passage salvation comes to those who call on the name of YHWH ie...the Divine name of Israel for God. Paul declares it is Jesus upon whom we must call on in order to be saved.
In Philippians 2:9-11, we read that Jesus has a name that is above every name that at His name every knee should bow and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Paul bases his statements on Isaiah 45:23, where we read (By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before Me every knee will bow; by Me every tongue will swear .In the context this is clearly YHWH speaking of Himself. He is the Lord who says there is no God apart from Me in verse 21.Paul does not hesitate in saying that every knee will bow to Jesus and every tongue will confess Jesus is YHWH.
It is an indisputable fact that Paul said God bestowed the Name “Yahweh” on Jesus because in Philippians 2: 9-11 he was quoting Isaiah 45: 21-24.
This is what Yahweh told Isaiah:
“And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none except Me. Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the Word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance, they will say of Me, ‘Only in Yahweh are righteousness and strength.’ Men will come to Him and all who were angry with Him shall be put to shame.”
Isaiah 43: 11- Yahweh said that He is our only Savior- Even I Am Yahweh and there is no other Savior besides Me. This verse is very clear as to its meaning.
We see that Yahweh is the Name God bestowed on Jesus and it is Yahweh which is the Name that is above every name and it is Yahweh to which every knee will bow. There is no mistaking that Paul declares in his epistles that Jesus is the Yahweh of the Hebrew Scriptures. Jesus is our Lord Yahweh in the New Testament as well as our Savior. These were the specific names that were Gods alone in the Old Testament.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
Do you ever wonder why the Invocations and Doxologies include both the Father and the Son, as Equals ?
Glory to God, Glory to the Father, Glory to the Son.
A Doxology is reserved for God. Below we see the Triune God mentioned in the Doxologies and opening of some of the N.T. letters. The NT declares that honor and glory are due to God alone. Some doxologies only mention Christ which speaks volumes about what the Apostles thought about Him and His Glory as God. The clear fact is Jesus receives the identical glory that the Father receives. These passages also make it abundantly clear of Christ’s pre existence and glory prior to creation(see John 17:5 below). He is therefore eternal just as the Father is eternal. Jesus received the Worship and Glory while on the earth and in Revelation receives the same honor,glory,praise and worship the Father receives in heaven. Jesus must be God Incarnate !
2 Tim 4:18
18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Phil 4:20
20 Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Gal 1:3-5
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be the glory forevermore. Amen.
Eph 3:16-21
I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge — that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
Rom 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
Rom 16:25-27
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
2 Cor 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
1 Thess 5:19-28
Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22 Avoid every kind of evil.
23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.
25 Brothers, pray for us. 26 Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss. 27 I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers.
28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
2 Tim 4:22
The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.
Philem 25
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
Heb 13:20-21
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21 equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Jude 24-25
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
1 Peter 5:14
Peace to all of you who are in Christ.
2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
2 Peter 3:18
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
1 John 5:20-21
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true — even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
21 Dear children, keep yourselves from idols.
Revelation 1:5-7
(5) and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—
(6) and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
(7) Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
1 Peter 4:11
Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:11-14
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
14 And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.
Rev 22:17-21
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.
Invocations in the N.T.
What we see here from Paul is that he equates Jesus as the source of grace and peace with the Father. Paul clearly identifies Jesus as equal with the Father and expresses His Deity with these invocations in his epistles. Not only is this a prayer from Paul but an act of worship in Paul's letters. Paul is giving Jesus the identical same honor to Jesus as he does to the Father. After all Jesus in His very own words commanded others to honor Him as you do the Father(John 5:23) Jesus thought equality with God was not something He needed to grasp for it was inherent within His nature.(Phil 2,Col 1,John 1, Heb 1, 1 John 1 etc.....) He was God in the flesh(John 1:1, 14) He said he who has seen Me has seen the Father and I and the Father are one. Why would you ask to show you the Father ? You are looking at God!!!!!!! Jesus also said before Abraham was born " I Am" ( the self existing One, with no beginning). The case for the Deity of Christ and Plurality in God is bullet proof in scripture.
Rom 1:7
7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ
1 Cor 1:3
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 1:2
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:3-4
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 1:1-2
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Phil 1:2
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thess 1:1-2
To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Philem 3
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
hope this helps !!!
Glory to God, Glory to the Father, Glory to the Son.
A Doxology is reserved for God. Below we see the Triune God mentioned in the Doxologies and opening of some of the N.T. letters. The NT declares that honor and glory are due to God alone. Some doxologies only mention Christ which speaks volumes about what the Apostles thought about Him and His Glory as God. The clear fact is Jesus receives the identical glory that the Father receives. These passages also make it abundantly clear of Christ’s pre existence and glory prior to creation(see John 17:5 below). He is therefore eternal just as the Father is eternal. Jesus received the Worship and Glory while on the earth and in Revelation receives the same honor,glory,praise and worship the Father receives in heaven. Jesus must be God Incarnate !
2 Tim 4:18
18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Phil 4:20
20 Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Gal 1:3-5
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be the glory forevermore. Amen.
Eph 3:16-21
I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge — that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
Rom 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
Rom 16:25-27
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
2 Cor 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
1 Thess 5:19-28
Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22 Avoid every kind of evil.
23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.
25 Brothers, pray for us. 26 Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss. 27 I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers.
28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
2 Tim 4:22
The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.
Philem 25
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
Heb 13:20-21
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21 equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Jude 24-25
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
1 Peter 5:14
Peace to all of you who are in Christ.
2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
2 Peter 3:18
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
1 John 5:20-21
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true — even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
21 Dear children, keep yourselves from idols.
Revelation 1:5-7
(5) and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—
(6) and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
(7) Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
1 Peter 4:11
Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:11-14
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
14 And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.
Rev 22:17-21
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.
Invocations in the N.T.
What we see here from Paul is that he equates Jesus as the source of grace and peace with the Father. Paul clearly identifies Jesus as equal with the Father and expresses His Deity with these invocations in his epistles. Not only is this a prayer from Paul but an act of worship in Paul's letters. Paul is giving Jesus the identical same honor to Jesus as he does to the Father. After all Jesus in His very own words commanded others to honor Him as you do the Father(John 5:23) Jesus thought equality with God was not something He needed to grasp for it was inherent within His nature.(Phil 2,Col 1,John 1, Heb 1, 1 John 1 etc.....) He was God in the flesh(John 1:1, 14) He said he who has seen Me has seen the Father and I and the Father are one. Why would you ask to show you the Father ? You are looking at God!!!!!!! Jesus also said before Abraham was born " I Am" ( the self existing One, with no beginning). The case for the Deity of Christ and Plurality in God is bullet proof in scripture.
Rom 1:7
7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ
1 Cor 1:3
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 1:2
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:3-4
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 1:1-2
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Phil 1:2
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thess 1:1-2
To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Philem 3
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
hope this helps !!!
Runningman
Active Member
The Lamb and God don't share the same throne. I hope this helps.
Revelation 3
21To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
civic
Active Member
rofl you just proved we are right and you are wrong. thanks for that scripture.
Runningman
Active Member
There are no verses that say God and Jesus share the same throne. So those who overcome sit on the throne of God and share God's exclusive glory too? You're overthinking it. This is where God Man cults come from.
Revelation 3
21To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
civic
Active Member
The Son sits on the same throne with the Father its right there is the passage lol.
take off those uni glasses.
Runningman
Active Member
Then you have just proven that Jesus doesn't share the exclusive glory of God. If the throne of Jesus and the Father are shared thrones and that is the exclusive glory of God, then Christians, those who overcome, are sharing in the same glory as God without being God. By process of elimination, this is not an example of Jesus sharing God's exclusive glory. I would also add, there are no examples in Revelation of the Lamb actually sharing the throne with God.
Similar threads
