Jesus doesn't share God's exclusive glory

[Runningman]

YHWH said in Isaiah 42:8, "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols."

The glory Jesus was given he gave to his disciples. Means Jesus didn't have God's exclusive glory. There are no examples of Jesus sharing God's exclusive glory in all of Scripture. All of the glory Jesus has, the Bible says we can share it with Jesus. Jesus and us Christians don't share God's exclusive glory. The Bible says we are given such glory by God, just like Jesus.

This means Jesus isn't God.

John 17​

5And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.​

22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—​

​

Romans 8​

17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.​

18I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us.​

30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.​

​

2 Corinthians 3​

18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.​

​

Colossians 3​

4When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.​

​

2 Thessalonians 2​

14To this He called you through our gospel, so that you may share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

​

1 Peter 5​

1As a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings, and a partaker of the glory to be revealed, I appeal to the elders among you:​

10And after you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself restore you, secure you, strengthen you, and establish you.​

 

[Fred]

There are no examples of Jesus sharing God's exclusive glory in all of Scripture.

The above is false.

Jesus shares with the Father in the attribute of 'glory'.
This is exclusive glory in that both are ascribed 'glory' in worship.


Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and in the sea, and all who are in them, heard I saying, To Him who sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.

 

[Runningman]

The above is false.

Jesus shares with the Father in the attribute of 'glory'.
This is exclusive glory in that both are ascribed 'glory' in worship.


Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and in the sea, and all who are in them, heard I saying, To Him who sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.

It doesn't say they are sharing the same glory and contextually they are not. Yes, they both get different kinds of glory, but not the same. The Lamb isn't sitting on the throne, so the Lamb isn't getting glory for that, for example. So the OP still stands. There are no examples of Jesus (the Lamb) sharing in God's exclusive glory.

Try again.

 

[Fred]

Yes, they both get different kinds of glory, but not the same.

All the attributes in Rev. 5:13 apply equally to both.

This is easy.

 

[Runningman]

All the attributes in Rev. 5:13 apply equally to both.

This is easy.

"To Him who sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb," the one on the throne and the Lamb are grammatically distinct. Difficult to share God's glory when they aren't sitting together.

Did you know Jesus was commanded to sit at God's right hand after he was taken to heaven and that Jesus obeyed?

 

[Fred]

"To Him who sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb," the one on the throne and the Lamb are grammatically distinct.

Jesus is not the Father. Great job.


Now open your eyes and see they are both given 'glory' in equality.

Clue up.

 

[Fred]

YHWH said in Isaiah

Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus (YHWH)! -> (John 12:36-41; cf. Isaiah 6:10)

John 12:36-41
36 While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.” These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them.
37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him.
38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.

 

[civic]

The above is false.

Jesus shares with the Father in the attribute of 'glory'.
This is exclusive glory in that both are ascribed 'glory' in worship.


Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and in the sea, and all who are in them, heard I saying, To Him who sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.

Amen He receives the same glory as the Father in heaven and the same glory with the Father before creation in John 17:5.

Notice how John 17:5 was left out of the OP for a good reason as Jesus contradicts the OP's claims.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus is not the Father. Great job.


Now open your eyes and see they are both given 'glory' in equality.

Clue up.

So Jesus and God aren't getting the same glory.

 

[Runningman]

Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus (YHWH)! -> (John 12:36-41; cf. Isaiah 6:10)

John 12:36-41
36 While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.” These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them.
37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him.
38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.

John 12:41 is quoted from Isaiah 6:10 and it is prophetic of what Jesus would say, not what God would say. Once again, God and Jesus don't share the same glory.

Enough theological smoke and mirrors. Where do God and Jesus share the same exclusive glory anywhere in the Bible?

 

[civic]

His glory was veiled during His earthly ministry and He only revealed His glory to James, Peter and John at the Transfiguration where Jesus also brought Moses and Elijah for them to see His Kingdom Glory.

AMEN !!!!!

 

[civic]

So Jesus and God aren't getting the same glory.

wrong it was veiled while He walked this earth.

 

[Runningman]

wrong it was veiled while He walked this earth.

Jesus had glory on earth, it just wasn't the same exclusive glory that God has.

 

[civic]

Jesus had glory on earth, it just wasn't the same exclusive glory that God has.

wrong it was the same just veiled.

 

[Fred]

So Jesus and God aren't getting the same glory.

That's your confusion.

 

[Fred]

John 12:41 is quoted from Isaiah 6:10 and it is prophetic of what Jesus would say, not what God would say.

Jesus isn't speaking in John 12:41.

You are confused.

 

[civic]

Isa 44:6
"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.


Isa 45:6
That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun
That there is no one besides Me.
I am the Lord, and there is no other,


Isa 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.

We know from the N.T. that Christ is the One Lord, the Only Lord. We know in Revelations that Christ identifies Himself as the First and the Last the title which YHWH declares of Himself in Isaiah. We know that Christ is also identifies as the Holy One in the N.T. and our King all titles and descriptions of YHWH in the Isaiah passages.

John 12:41
These things Isaiah said, because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him

Isaiah 6:1-10
In the year of King, Uzziah's death, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. 2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called out to another and said,

"Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,,

The whole earth is full of His glory."

4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. 5 Then I said,

"Woe is me, for I am ruined!,

Because I am a man of unclean lips,

And I live among a people of unclean lips;,

For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty."


One need only follow the pronouns and the verbs. Isaiah saw the glory of YHWH. There is only ONE time that Isaiah saw the glory of YHWH; its in Ish 6. John says that Isaiah saw "his" glory, the glory of Jesus. That Isaiah ALSO foretold the suffering and rejection of Christ is true but irrelevant. You are confusing what Isaiah foretold (Christ's suffering and rejection) with what he literally "saw" (the glory of YWHW).

The verb Isaiah used for "saw" in 6;1 is רָאָה ("ra'ah"). In the qal, it refers to the act of seeing in the literal sense, to see with the eyes (as opposed to, for example, מַחֲזֶה "machazeh", which is the act or event of an ecstatic "vision"). In referring to this event, John uses the Greek word εἶδον ("eidon") - also a verb referring to the act of seeing with the eyes in the natural sense.

We know that God the Father is invisible, "whom no man hath seen, nor can see" (1 Tim 6:16). He is transcendent and lives in unapproachable light (1 Tim 6:16). But the Son is "the image of the invisible God" (Col 1:15). Thus the one whom Isaiah "saw" in the literal sense with his eyes is the one whom he explicitly identified as "YHWH" - the same one whose glory he saw according to John (Jn 12:41). Jesus himself makes this clear at v.45 "And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me."

There is only ONE time when Isaiah saw someone he, speaking by the Holy Spirit identified as "YHWH", and John's spirit-inspired narrative of the interactions of Jesus with the Jews in the 11th and 12th chapter of his gospel, including their rejection of Christ, says that what Isaiah saw was HIS (ie Jesus') glory. This works in perfect harmony with John's whole purpose, given the FACT that John had previously identified the one who became flesh and dwelt among us (Jn 1:14) as "God" (Jn 1:1). Nowhere in the context of this narrative (ie Ch 12) does John speak of Christ's "glorification" in his rejection and crucifixion. To claim that this is what John was talking about in referring to what Isaiah SAW with his eyes ignores the grammar and the immediate context, including the clear and unmistakable words of Christ himself in that very context.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

continued below :

Rev 22:13, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.”

We can see here that Whoever is the Alpha/Omega also claims to be the first/last AND the beginning/end. It’s the same Person.

If we look back in Rev 1:17-18 we see the following:

“…Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”

So, the One Who is first/last (and then is also Alpha/Omega and beginning/end) is the same Person who was dead and is alive forever more. It doesn’t take a scholar to figure out Who is the One speaking here. It does take a lot of mental gymnastics to explain away something so obvious.

The term "first/last" is used 4 times in Rev. Twice it is used along with "Alpha/Omega" with the Person claiming to be "first/last" AND the "Alpha/Omega."

"Alpha/Omega" is used 4 times in Rev. Twice with "first/last" and twice with "beginning/end."

"Beginning/end" occurs 3 times: twice with "Alpha/Omega" and once with "Alpha/Omega" AND "first/last."

In all of these texts, the speaker always refers to Himself with both or all of the titles. To say, "Well, this time it's Jehovah who is the first/last, this next time it's Jesus, then later it's Jehovah again..." is the mental gymnastics to which I referred.

Is God the first/last or is Jesus the first/last? Is God the Alpha/Omega or is Jesus the Alpha/Omega? Is God the beginning/end or is Jesus the beginning/end. An obvious way to reconcile the verses is to understand that Jesus is God.

According to unitarians, it seems God claimed to be the first/last in one sense while Jesus claimed to be first/last in another sense. You seem to gloss over the blatant connection of first/last with beginning/end and Alpha/Omega. In each verse, the Speaker who claims one title also claims one or both of the others. It's all the same person.

I really am baffled by the unitarians suggestion from other discussion in the past that “first/last” has some meaning here other than the obvious one (a title synonymous with Alpha/Omega). You even say that Alpha/Omega is never used of the Son? Incredible!! We both have said that context is king so I would like to remind other readers of the context of Rev 1:17-18 (beginning in v.10, Young’s Literal):

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's-day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last;' and, `What thou dost see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies that [are] in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.'

And I did turn to see the voice that did speak with me, and having turned, I saw seven golden lamp-stands, and in the midst of the seven lamp-stands, [one] like to a son of man, clothed to the foot, and girt round at the breast with a golden girdle, and his head and hairs white, as if white wool -- as snow, and his eyes as a flame of fire; and his feet like to fine brass, as in a furnace having been fired, and his voice as a sound of many waters, and having in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp two-edged sword is proceeding, and his countenance [is] as the sun shining in its might.

And when I saw him, I did fall at his feet as dead, and he placed his right hand upon me, saying to me, `Be not afraid; I am the First and the Last, and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death.

Do you realize this is one scene? The Speaker identifies Himself in v. 11 as “the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last.” John turns to see who is speaking and sees “one like to a son of man” (other translations have “the Son of man”). Perhaps John is saying, "I saw someone who looked like Jesus." Then finally, in v. 17-18, the Speaker indeed identifies Himself as the One who is living and became dead and is now alive again forever.

Unitarians: I guess you identify the Alpha and Omega in v. 8 as Jehovah and v. 11 as Jesus? I guess you don’t see the term “the First and the Last” as a title equivalent to “the Alpha and Omega”? If so, you are definitely seeing something in the text that an ordinary reading doesn’t see beacuse of your bias.

It’s a title ascribed to the Almighty. I didn’t think it needed a more precise definition to be understood. What about, “the one who is and who was and who to come”? Does that need to be defined? I guess we could talk about a precise definition but I don’t think that will change my point. The Alpha/Omega is self-described as “the Almighty (1:8) AND the First/Last (22:13). The First/Last is self-described as the one who was dead and is alive forever more (1:18). Again, there are either 2 people who are the first and last OR Jesus is the Almighty.

Conclusion: Scripture declares YHWH is the First and the Last and besides Me there is no God/YHWH. Christ is YHWH.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

wrong it was the same just veiled.

Jesus having "veiled glory" is one of those religious cliches, not what the Bible actually says.

 

[Runningman]

That's your confusion.

God sits on the throne, the Lamb doesn't. Your first attempt to conflate the glory of the Lamb with the exclusive glory of God was a strikeout.