brightfame52
Active Member
Correct, scripture is clear grace in salvation makes alive Eph 2:5
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
James White affirms Libertarian Free Will.
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5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
atpollard
Active Member
The lack of scriptural support in your "taint so" is duly noted. For the record, I am a "Sola Scriptura" Baptist who derives no pleasure from the "Doctrines of Grace" (TULIP) - [I refuse to call something written by the Synod of Dort after John Calvin was already dead 'Calvinism' just because the powerful Lutheran State Church gave it that name as an insult]. I would gladly embrace Wesleyan Arminianism, but for the fact that Scripture does not affirm what John Wesley and Billy Graham - both Godly men as far as I can tell - assert: There is no call to "invite God into your heart" and God has no need of anyone's "permission" to be God.
Romans 9:14-18 [NKJV]
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
Ephesians 2:8-10 [NKJV]
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Contrary to your OPINIONS, scripture teaches that it is ...
- NOT of your will
- NOT of your running
- NOT of yourself
- GOD who has mercy
- whomever GOD wills
- GOD's gift
- GOD's workmanship
So, stop trying to sit in God's seat.
AaronH
Active Member
But Pollard, as you probably know there are answers for those scriptures that don't involve God forcefeeding faith to some and irreversibly withholding it from others. Those scriptures do not say that God does all this with no criterion whatsoever. He is the author of salvation, of course (not one Christian denies that).
I could fire off several scriptures that seem to preclude [whatever your preferred term for Calvinism is], and maybe I will, but for now I'll just ask.
If God foreordains everything that comes to pass, why does he sometimes get angry at people for doing that which he foreordained, and how is it that he sometimes changes his mind? See Exodus 32:7-14 for an example of each.
atpollard
Active Member
How can anything come to pass that an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God did not foreordain?
Does God say "Oops, I didn't mean for THAT to happen."?
FreeInChrist
Active Member
But if I might add a wee comment to this:
Someone tells us the gospel, and we either believe what they say or deny what they say. In other words, we choose.
If there were no real choice involved, then calls to repent, believe, obey, and come to Christ would be meaningless. Scripture consistently addresses people as responsible responders, not as stones being pushed downhill.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
The elect are those who place their faith in Jesus Christ for redemption.
In Scripture, the elect are believers, those who are in Christ through faith.
Nowhere does Scripture describe the elect as unbelievers marked out while remaining outside Christ. The elect are those found in Christ through faith.
brightfame52
Active Member
Again Romans 5 is about the elect.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
You do not like copy and pastes, and I therefore believe if one is presented you will not read it.
You do not believe me so I wonder who it is you will believe.
You say the bible, yet people have been selected by God to explain things in the bible.
The following is the case.
About the author.... Brad’s passion is to reach people with grace and teach people about grace.
You know Grace from Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Who Are The Elect In Matthew 24:22-24? — Gracereach
In Matthew 24, Jesus is answering the disciples’ question about the destruction of the buildings on the temple mount in Jerusalem and the question about the end of the age. They wanted to know when the destruction would happen and what would be the sign of his coming at the end of the age. In Jes
www.gracereach.org
the following is from Grace Reach
Who Are The Elect In Matthew 24:22-24?
Matthew 24PredestinationElectParablesTonguesBible StudyVerses In ContextActsWritten By Brad Robertson
In Matthew 24, Jesus is answering the disciples’ question about the destruction of the buildings on the temple mount in Jerusalem and the question about the end of the age.
They wanted to know when the destruction would happen and what would be the sign of his coming at the end of the age.
In Jesus’ answer, he states in Matthew 24:22-24,
“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.”
Notice the two uses of the word elect.
Many people have asked, “Who are the elect Jesus is referring to?”
Some believe the elect is the church, the body of Christ, consisting of those who have individually and freely trusted in Jesus for salvation.
Those who hold this view believe it is the church God has elected, and anyone can be part of the church (God’s family) through faith in Jesus.
Others believe the elect is Jesus, meaning it is the work of Jesus for the salvation of people that God has elected, and anyone can believe and be saved.
Still others believe the elect are individuals God has preselected or chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world. God’s choosing of who will be saved is upon God’s grace (God’s unconditional choice of who will be saved).
Those who hold this view are called Calvinists, since they hold to this teaching of John Calvin.
So which view is it?
When we seek to interpret a verse in the Bible, we want to understand the context of the verse, the time the verse was written or spoken, who wrote or spoke, who was being spoken or written to, and how did those written or spoken to understand what they read or heard.
Additionally, when we seek to interpret a verse, we must consider the book and the testament the verse is in.
The old testament is the law of Moses and was in place until Jesus died on the cross.
The new testament is the blood of Jesus shed for our sins.
So when we seek to interpret a verse, we must pay attention the testament the verse is in, which may impact how the verse is interpreted and applied.
There are also certain principles to follow when studying the Bible, such as the principle of first mention.
The principle of first mention means has the writer or speaker of the verse or word being studied used the verse or word already, and if so, when is the first time it is used.
For example, Luke is the writer of Acts.
He first mentions the word tongues in Acts 2, explaining tongues in the context.
He then mentions tongues in Acts 8, 10, and 19, without defining tongues.
The reason he does not define tongues in Acts 8, 10, and 19 is because he already defined tongues in Acts 2.
In Acts 2, Luke writes that tongues was the ability of some to speak in a known earthly language for the purpose of telling others about Jesus.
Since Luke defines tongues in Acts 2, he does not need to define it again in Acts 8, 10, or 19.
It is the same with the word elect in Matthew 24:22-24.
The word elect is not defined in Matthew 24:22-24, but it is defined in Matthew 22:1-14 when Jesus told the parable of the wedding banquet.
This is the first mention of the elect by Jesus in Matthew.
Jesus defines the elect in Matthew 22:1-14.
By following the principle of first mention with the word elect, we can determine who the elect are.
Jesus first mentioned the word elect when he said in Matthew 22:14 the following words: Many are invited, but few are chosen or elected.
If we want to determine who the elect are in Matthew 24:22-24, we must determine who the elect are in Matthew 22:14, the first time Jesus used the word elect as recorded by Matthew.
The word chosen or elected in Matthew 22:14 is the same Greek word used in Matthew 24:22-24 for the elect.
The Greek word can be translated chosen or elected.
Remember, the context of a verse or word will many times provide the information we need to determine the meaning of the verse or word.
The context of the word elect in Matthew 22:14 originates in Matthew 22:1-13.
So let’s take a look at the context.
Jesus is teaching about the kingdom of heaven in the parable of the wedding banquet.
The kingdom of heaven was a popular topic among the Jewish people.
The kingdom was prophesied about in the Jewish scriptures (Isaiah 9:6-7) and was synonymous with eternal life (read Jesus’ conversation with the rich young ruler in Luke 18:18-30 and with Nicodemus in John 3).
The Jewish people understood righteousness was required to live eternally in the kingdom.
In this parable, Jesus reveals the righteous ones chosen or elected to live in the kingdom.
The kingdom (eternal life) and the wedding banquet are synonymous in this parable.
The parable is about a king who sent out invitations two times to two groups of people.
The first invitations sent out were to a preselected group of people the king chose (elected) to invite to his son’s wedding banquet.
Those receiving these invitations either ignored the invitations or rejected them.
Some of those who rejected the invitations had the servants of the king murdered.
Following the killing of the servants, the king then sent other servants to invite everyone.
These were non-preselected people who his servants invited, meaning the king did not preselect who would receive these invitations.
It was a public invitation to anybody and everybody.
So the first invitations were sent to a preselected group who ignored or rejected the invitations.
The second invitations were sent to a non-preselected group.
A few in the non-preselected group accepted the invitation and, because they accepted the invitation, were chosen (elected) to enter the wedding hall to celebrate the wedding banquet of the king’s son.
Their being chosen or elected to enter was not based upon preselection, because the preselected group either ignored or rejected the invitation.
Rather, those chosen or elected to enter were from the non-preselected group who responded to the invitation sent out to all people.
So how does this apply to the elect of Matthew 24:22-24?
Staying with the principle of first mention of the word elect, the elect of Matthew 24:22-24 are the elect of Matthew 22:14.
The disciples understood who the elect were of Matthew 24:22-24 because they previously heard Jesus teach about the elect as written by Matthew in Matthew 22:1-14.
The elect are those who were not preselected to enter the kingdom of God but are those who personally chose to enter the kingdom by responding to the public invitation to believe in Jesus.
The invitation to believe, or place one’s faith in Jesus, is sent to everyone.
It is the non-elect who have responded to the invitation to enter the kingdom of heaven by believing in Jesus.
Those who believe, or place their faith in Jesus, are given the gift of righteousness (the wedding clothes) needed to live in the kingdom.
Calvinism is the belief that those who have faith in Jesus have been preselected (elected) before the foundation of the earth to have faith in Jesus and, therefore, will believe.
It is only the preselected who will place their faith in Jesus, according to Calvinism.
Those who embrace Calvinism believe the elect are the ones preselected by God to be saved, and unless someone is elected by God to be saved, then he can’t believe in Jesus for salvation.
This view is in total contrast to the parable of the wedding banquet as told by Jesus.
Those who were not chosen (elected) to enter the wedding banquet were the preselected ones.
Those who were chosen to enter the wedding banquet were individuals from the non-preselected group.
Again, it was individuals from the non-preselected group who were chosen to enter.
In the parable, the preselected group represents the Jewish people who rejected the prophets God sent to Israel (2 Chronicles 30:10; 36:15-16; Jeremiah 38:6; Nehemiah 9:26; Matthew 5:12).
The preselected group also represents some of the Jewish people who rejected Jesus, Israel’s Messiah, and had Jesus killed.
Peter and Stephen both testify to the prophets and Jesus being killed (Acts 3:14-15; Acts 7:51-53).
In the parable, the king sends an army to destroy the city.
This represents the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans armies in AD 70 as taught by Jesus in Luke 21 and Matthew 24. (To learn more about AD 70, CLICK HERE.)
The non-preselected people represent all Gentiles all over the world.
Invitations to trust in Jesus for eternal life is currently being sent out all over the world so all people have the opportunity to trust in Jesus for salvation.
Some of the Gentiles, and individual Jews as well, have responded to the message about Jesus by trusting in him for salvation and eternal life.
Because they have trusted in Jesus, they have been given the righteousness needed to live eternally.
This is the gospel of grace we learn in Romans.
In Romans, we learn all have sinned.
We see that Jesus died for all, taking our sinfulness upon himself and offering us his righteousness as a gift that is received by faith in Jesus.
Calvinists agree righteousness is a gift from God; however, they also believe faith is a gift from God, but it is given only to the elect.
Calvinists teach that only those God elects to give the gift of faith will believe in Jesus for salvation.
Those who he has preselected to believe cannot reject the invitation to place their faith in Jesus.
In Calvinism, this is called unconditional election and irresistible grace.
According to Calvinism, the non-preselected cannot believe because they have not been elected to believe, and, therefore, have not been given the gift of faith to believe.
Again, this is in total contrast to the parable of the wedding banquet.
Calvinists interpret the few in Matthew 22:14 chosen to enter the wedding banquet as the elect God has preselected (predestined) to believe and be saved.
However, the few who are chosen in Mathew 22:14 are those who were not preselected (predestined).
Those who were elected to enter the wedding banquet were a few individuals who were unknown to the king and not preselected by the king.
These individuals were chosen to enter because they personally accepted the invitation through faith in Jesus, not because they were preselected to be given faith and accept the invitation.
Faith is accepting God’s invitation to trust in Jesus for salvation.
Everyone has been given by God the ability to have faith.
People exercise faith all over the world in many different ways.
In Romans, the gift is not faith.
The gift is righteousness (Romans 3:21-25; 5:17).
Anyone can have faith in Jesus.
God has not preselected everyone he will give faith to so they can believe in Jesus and be saved.
But according to Calvinism, he has.
Calvinists will use Matthew 22:14 and 24:22-24 as a proof-texts for their theology of election.
Yet when we follow proper Bible study methods for interpreting verses and words, Matthew 22:14 and 24:22-24 do not support Calvinists' theology of election, because the chosen are the non-preselected or non-predestined ones.
To read more about who the elect are in the Parable of the Wedding Banquet, CLICK HERE.
If you enjoyed this blog, you may enjoy reading Brad’s Books.
Brad Robertson
Brad’s passion is to reach people with grace and teach people about grace. If you enjoy Brad’s posts, check out his books on Amazon. Also, please consider making a donation to Gracereach to reach more and more people with the good news of grace. Thank you.
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