James White affirms Libertarian Free Will.

[brightfame52]

Nor is faith meritorious.

It is when its made a condition the man of flesh must have or act to get saved, but its not when its acknowledged a Gift of Gods Grace, a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

 

[Kampioen]

Man is dead, drowned already

He's walking around. He just is dead in sin due to lack of knowledge.

Adam was blocked for going back to the garden, so he had libertarian free will to try. And his offspring lacked access.

They are then dead in sin.

Prevenient grace unblocks access to God, so they can libertarianly choose.

Then God solely effectually makes them spiritually alive, not of works lest any man should boast.

 

[brightfame52]

He's walking around.

lol but he still dead

 

[Kampioen]

lol but he still dead

In sin.

But when God gives access ie prevenient grace and the gospel, he libertarianly chooses.

Then God effectually saves.

 

[brightfame52]

In sin.

Dead in sin and trespasses, spiritually dead.

 

[brightfame52]

But when God gives access ie prevenient grace and the gospel, he libertarianly chooses.

No God quickens them that are dead by grace, that makes them alive,, a new creature Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Being made alive is a far cry from giving access, they are given life, at that point they are saved by grace.

 

[Kampioen]

No God quickens them that are dead by grace, that makes them alive,, a new creature Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Being made alive is a far cry from giving access, they are given life, at that point they are saved by grace.

Yes, God quickens by grace. But God first opens access to the dead in sin so he can libertarianly choose, by grace.

Yes, ... Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Yes, being made alive is a far cry from giving access, they are given life, at that point they are saved by grace.

 

[Kampioen]

Dead in sin and trespasses, spiritually dead.

Spiritually dead means lost, not that he couldn't be enlightened and libertarianly choose to have God give him life.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, God quickens by grace.

Correct that makes alive, gives new heart, new life, at that point theyre saved, a new creature

But God first opens access to the dead in sin so he can libertarianly choose, by grace.

False, God first quickens the dead in sin and makes them alive by grace Eph 2:5

 

[brightfame52]

Spiritually dead means lost,

Yes, dead, therefore needing life

 

[AaronH]

Man is dead, drowned already

The passages you would use to support this were speaking to a particular audience and in a particular setting for a particular effect and don't mean that men are universally hopeless without God force-feeding them faith.

The problem is that your view of God somehow allows that he would create most people to be inalterably hell bound for eternity when not even the worst human would do such a thing and despite clear passages stating that God is love, never that God is wraith and specifically that his wrath is temporary (Isaiah 54, Psalm 30 et.al.)

 

[brightfame52]

The passages you would use to support this were speaking to a particular audience and in a particular setting for a particular effect and don't mean that men are universally hopeless without God force-feeding them faith.

Man is dead already, drowned.

 

[AaronH]

Man is dead already, drowned.

 

[Kampioen]

Man is dead already, drowned.

Drowned men don't resist the Holy Ghost. Although they are spiritually dead all the while.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

 

[atpollard]

Drowned men don't resist the Holy Ghost. Although they are spiritually dead all the while.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

True, they are worse than dead … they are actively fighting to get away from God.

[NLT] (for easy to read)

Genesis 3:8
“When the cool evening breezes were blowing, the man and his wife heard the LORD God walking about in the garden. So they hid from the LORD God among the trees.”

John 3:18-20
“There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son. And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed.”

• The children (John 3) are just like the parents (Genesis 3).

Romans 1:18-22
But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools.

• Sinful people SUPPRESS the truth, their minds are dark and confused.

Romans 3:10-12
As the Scriptures say,
"No one is righteous--
not even one.
No one is truly wise;
no one is seeking God.
All have turned away;
all have become useless.
No one does good,
not a single one."

• Not “some people” but ALL PEOPLE choose to hide (just like Adam).

Ephesians 2:1-3
Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God's anger, just like everyone else.

• Even the saints are no exception … we were exactly like everyone else at one point.

Ephesians 2:4
But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much,

• Therein lies the difference between a saint and a sinner … “But God”.
• Not what we do, but what He does.
• For God said to Moses, "I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose." So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it. - Romans 9:15-16

 

[Kampioen]

True, they are worse than dead … they are actively fighting to get away from God.

[NLT] (for easy to read)

Genesis 3:8
“When the cool evening breezes were blowing, the man and his wife heard the LORD God walking about in the garden. So they hid from the LORD God among the trees.”

John 3:18-20
“There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son. And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed.”

• The children (John 3) are just like the parents (Genesis 3).

Romans 1:18-22
But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools.

• Sinful people SUPPRESS the truth, their minds are dark and confused.

Romans 3:10-12
As the Scriptures say,
"No one is righteous--
not even one.
No one is truly wise;
no one is seeking God.
All have turned away;
all have become useless.
No one does good,
not a single one."

• Not “some people” but ALL PEOPLE choose to hide (just like Adam).

Ephesians 2:1-3
Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God's anger, just like everyone else.

• Even the saints are no exception … we were exactly like everyone else at one point.

Ephesians 2:4
But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much,

• Therein lies the difference between a saint and a sinner … “But God”.
• Not what we do, but what He does.
• For God said to Moses, "I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose." So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it. - Romans 9:15-16

True. But when they avoid the Holy Ghost, prevenient grace is enlightening them and they are actively libertarianly avoiding God, not passively being strung by a pre-existing script.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

And Rom 9:32, also with prevenient grace, they express libertarian faith, ie *because* they sought it not by faith.

Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

 

[brightfame52]

Drowned men don't resist the Holy Ghost

Yes they do, because though they dead spiritually, they are flesh and the flesh is at enmity against God. They are dead spiritually in not able to do right, they are not dead sinfully, all the dead can do is act in enmity against God, and it has no freewill not to act that way. Its like when Peter wrote 2 Pet 2:14

Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

These folk dont have libertine freewill to cease from sin, they dead

 

[atpollard]

True. But when they avoid the Holy Ghost, prevenient grace is enlightening them and they are actively libertarianly avoiding God, not passively being strung by a pre-existing script.

"Prevenient grace"?
While I believe in a grace that precedes "faith" and "belief" (thereby enabling it), I think we (you and I) should clarify what we each mean by the term and what we can support from scripture.

I see this "pre-salvific" grace as both "specific" and "effective". This grace is given to individuals (like salvation itself) rather than some general blanket that covers everyone without exception, and this grace achieves the purpose for which it was given (those to whom prevenient grace is given will and do come to Jesus). For examples in scripture, I point to:

• [NKJV] Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. - Acts 16:14

"libertarianly"?
Please correct me if I am wrong, but does libertarianly not mean free from outside influence? Theoretically, a morally neutral choice - like Adam and Eve in the garden before the snake arrived. People are not morally neutral, they are sinners that actively HIDE from God, reject the truth, and live in sin [John 3:18-20, Romans 3:10-12, Ephesians 2:1-3]. This is the "chain" that "prevenient grace" must overcome of the sinner (which we all are by nature) is to come to grace.

 

[brightfame52]

Prevenient grace"?

Thats a doctrine of the devil himself, for Grace either makes one alive, or that one is still dead.

 

[atpollard]

Thats a doctrine of the devil himself, for Grace either makes one alive, or that one is still dead.

I am not a huge fan of Wesley's "prevenient grace" where God overturns "original sin" and "Total Inability" to make all people without exception capable of "libertarian" (free from all external influence) "free will". I do not see ANY scripture that supports that as a "doctrine".