Is there a present burning hell where departed souls of the wicked are sent?
- Thread starter Red Baker
- Start date
Greetings Rowan~While I agree that the majority of professing Christians do believe in a present literal burning hellfire where the wicked go at death~yet that does not make it so. Such teaching is the offshoot of the RCC doctrine of purgatory:I believe there is a Literal hell, And I would say the vast majority of Christians would agree. Here are a few verses from the Bible that seems to support that.
HELL
enough to go into the fiery hell. Mt 5:22
whole body to be thrown into hell. Mt 5:29
for your whole body to go into hell. Mt 5:30
destroy both soul and body in hell. Mt 10:28
eyes and be cast into the fiery hell. Mt 18:9
as much a son of hell as yourselves. Mt 23:15
you escape the sentence of hell? Mt 23:33
your two hands, to go into hell, Mk 9:43
your two feet, to be cast into hell, Mk 9:45
two eyes, to be cast into hell, Mk 9:47
has authority to cast into hell; Lk 12:5
our life, and is set on fire by hell. Jas 3:6
but cast them into hell and committed 2Pe 2:4
Questions about Hell: Is It a Literal Fire? Or Worse? - Explore the Bible
All of us can imagine the great horror of being immersed in a lake of hot flame forever. With that pain in mind, I think the Bible leads us to conclude that hell is even worse than that....www.biblestudytools.com
Just think for a moment (which is hard for those to do, who have been brainwashed by false religion) does it make any rational sense to send folks to a literal burning hellfire, and then take them out of that place of torment, to be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment, only to cast them back again into the lake of fire to suffer as long as God is God?
We we read Matthew 7:22,23, which said:
There is no mentioning of them having already suffered for x amount of years, not a word~ Yet they did bring up some of their personal good works that they thought they had done in the name of Jesus Christ. If there is such a place as a present burning hellfire, then at the final judgment it would have been a perfect time for the wicked to say~Lord, have we not already suffered for x amount of years ~ yet not a word of that is mentioned, though they did mentioned some other things to plead with the Lord.
We agree there will be a hellfire judgement where the wicked shall be cast into, called the lake of fire which is the second death.
We do not need a GPS to locate the lake of fire, for Peter tells us exactly where it is.
The lake of fire will be when this earth is destroyed by the fire of God and all things therein shall be burnt up and pass away including the wicked, whose hearts were consumed by lust for the things of this present world. The former world passed away with water, the next time all shall passed away with fire, which fire will be fervent heat, impossible to live through this~the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up!
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Olde Tymer
Well-known member
~
Luke 16:19-31 tells of three men in the afterlife. The story is alleged to be one of
several New Testament parables: which are stories variously regarded as fact
and/or fiction.
A problem with the fiction view is Abraham. He's an historical person; plus he's said
to be one of God's buddies. (Isa 41:8) Well; the story quotes Abraham a number
of times. It seems inappropriate to me that a Bible story would quote an important
historical figure saying things that he didn't really say.
The fiction view also alleges that the Greek word haides in verse 23 pertains
to the rich man's grave. Well; we can be reasonably certain that Abraham is dead
and buried (Gen 25:8-10) so I have to wonder how these two men's dead bodies
communicated with each other through solid ground from grave to grave.
Plus; dead bodies typically exhibit no mental activity; and have lost the use of their
five natural senses of taste, touch, sight, hearing, and smell. Yet in death, the rich
man appears fully sentient, viz: he is able to feel heat from the flames around him,
he is in misery due to dehydration, he is able to see across a chasm to where
Abraham is located, and he is said to experience anxiety relative to the possibility
of five brothers joining him in rather unpleasant circumstances.
The third man's name is given as Lazarus. It appears from the language and
grammar of the story that Lazarus' angelic transportation buried his corpse
alongside Abraham's corpse, i.e. he and Abraham appear to be sharing the same
grave. But the man was a diseased pauper in life so it's extremely doubtful his
remains were given any kind of a funeral at all but instead were likely incinerated
in a community landfill.
Ergo: the "grave" theory is untenable; it won't even hold up under the scrutiny of
common sense; let alone the stretch of one's imagination.
_
Luke 16:19-31 tells of three men in the afterlife. The story is alleged to be one of
several New Testament parables: which are stories variously regarded as fact
and/or fiction.
A problem with the fiction view is Abraham. He's an historical person; plus he's said
to be one of God's buddies. (Isa 41:8) Well; the story quotes Abraham a number
of times. It seems inappropriate to me that a Bible story would quote an important
historical figure saying things that he didn't really say.
The fiction view also alleges that the Greek word haides in verse 23 pertains
to the rich man's grave. Well; we can be reasonably certain that Abraham is dead
and buried (Gen 25:8-10) so I have to wonder how these two men's dead bodies
communicated with each other through solid ground from grave to grave.
Plus; dead bodies typically exhibit no mental activity; and have lost the use of their
five natural senses of taste, touch, sight, hearing, and smell. Yet in death, the rich
man appears fully sentient, viz: he is able to feel heat from the flames around him,
he is in misery due to dehydration, he is able to see across a chasm to where
Abraham is located, and he is said to experience anxiety relative to the possibility
of five brothers joining him in rather unpleasant circumstances.
The third man's name is given as Lazarus. It appears from the language and
grammar of the story that Lazarus' angelic transportation buried his corpse
alongside Abraham's corpse, i.e. he and Abraham appear to be sharing the same
grave. But the man was a diseased pauper in life so it's extremely doubtful his
remains were given any kind of a funeral at all but instead were likely incinerated
in a community landfill.
Ergo: the "grave" theory is untenable; it won't even hold up under the scrutiny of
common sense; let alone the stretch of one's imagination.
_
Are you the gentleman that is on GCF and go by the name~ NyawehNyoh? Pretty sure you are, and if so, then I have posted to you concerning Luke 16:19-31 there. If not the same , then I'll be happy to prove that Luke 16 is a parable given that goes perfectly with the context of~Luke 16:1-13.
Olde Tymer
Well-known member
~
I am confident that you, and quite a few others, are fully capable of proving beyond
even the slightest glimmer of reasonable doubt that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable; just
as I am confident that those who oppose you can do the same.
I am also confident that a free-thinking society deserves to hear both sides of a
controversy so that folks can make up their own minds which side to accept; if at all.
I May Disapprove of What You Say,
But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It
(Evelyn Beatrice Hall, 1906.)
NOTE: The manner in which our people in high places suppressed second opinions
relative to the Covid pandemic was the most shocking case of un-American activity
by my government that I had ever seen in 80+ years of living in the USA. I'm still
having difficulty believing something like that could happen here.
_
I am confident that you, and quite a few others, are fully capable of proving beyond
even the slightest glimmer of reasonable doubt that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable; just
as I am confident that those who oppose you can do the same.
I am also confident that a free-thinking society deserves to hear both sides of a
controversy so that folks can make up their own minds which side to accept; if at all.
I May Disapprove of What You Say,
But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It
(Evelyn Beatrice Hall, 1906.)
NOTE: The manner in which our people in high places suppressed second opinions
relative to the Covid pandemic was the most shocking case of un-American activity
by my government that I had ever seen in 80+ years of living in the USA. I'm still
having difficulty believing something like that could happen here.
_
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Rowan
Active member
Got to love Johnny, he's the best.
Thank you old timer~I enjoy most of your posts the dry humor, salted with wisdom.
sethproton
Active member
MetaphoricallY? So much of Revelation is not literal. It has pictures that carry doctrinal meaning, but are couched in images that the Spirit has to explain. And while I would say there is one ultimate meaning of each written word/phrase thing in Revelation, most of it reads/feels/looks like layers of the same truth understood in ever deepening ways by Christians.
So, where is the lake of fire? The Bible has no literal description of what and where it is, so no one can give a perfect answer to this. We can conclude that it is not part of our physical universe, because it already exists and will continue to exist after God has destroyed this world and created a new one. It is eternal; the earth is temporal/temporary.
civic
Well-known member
What is the source material for these 6-8 posts ?
e v e
Well-known member
we are in a Hell right now. this earth.
God calls it death and warns adam.
The body of adm human in paradise was not the one we have now.
adam is indeed both not dead and a deity.
adam did not die.
the term deity is not understood.
Augustine is wrong. man was not created out of nothing. That concept is plato and augustine got it from plato.
e v e
Well-known member
Deity as in God our only God is the core meaning of deity.
All His sons and daughters in paradise are in His type of nature, which is deity,
the glorified original body He gave us.
We are His actual sons and daughters.
the creature concept is the current fallen situation
where we are in sin nature
(this earth and body = sin)
All His sons and daughters in paradise are in His type of nature, which is deity,
the glorified original body He gave us.
We are His actual sons and daughters.
the creature concept is the current fallen situation
where we are in sin nature
(this earth and body = sin)
e v e
Well-known member
the evil entities go there. not meant for jacob souls. thats just bullying over the centuries.
that second death view is augustine. best to skip it.
whose version. kin and all modern bibles are esau's corrupt scroll.
very weird but i won't elaborate here.
not God did that!
corupt.
sigh.
because entering the sin realm.
adam did not die.
adam does not have a flesh body like we do. not at all.
I would just start over in your inquiry.
civic, three places~most all of my baptist forefathers taught this~if your do a study on The London Confession of faith in its first edition, (1642 I believe) those Baptist forefathers who were Particular Baptist taught this. Secondly, one of the main men working of the first edition was Samuel Richardson, who wrote on this subject more than the other men. Thirdly, some are my personal understanding after fifty years of considering this subject, which would have to be the case, or, I would not have embraced this truth.
A present burning hellfire is nothing more than a offshoot of the RCC doctrine of purgatory.
The wages of sin IS DEATH not eternal sufferings! Ultimately paid off in the lake of fire, which is the second and final death of the wicked.
Romans 6:23
“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Fool4Christ
Active member
Key Facts About Eternity From Bible.org
(1) Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15).(2) Everyone has only one life in which to determine their destiny (Hebrews 9:27).
(3) Heaven or hell is determined by whether a person believes (puts their trust) in Christ alone to save them (John 3:16, 36, etc.).
Key Passages About Hell
(1) Hell was designed originally for Satan and his demons (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10).(2) Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ (Matthew 13:41,50; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8).
(3) Hell is conscious torment.
- Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
- Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
- Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”
- Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
- Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
- Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”
Erroneous Views of Hell
(1) The second chance view – After death there is still a way to escape hell.Answer: “It is appointed unto men once to die and after that the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27).
(2) Universalism – All are eternally saved.
Answer: It denies the truth of salvation through Christ which means that a person decides to either trust in Christ or else he/she rejects Christ and goes to hell (John 3:16;3:36).
(3) Annihilationism – Hell means a person dies like an animal – ceases to exist.
Answer: It denies the resurrection of the unsaved (John 5:28, etc. – see above). It denies conscious torment (see above).
Objections to the Biblical View of Hell
(1) A loving God would not send people to a horrible hell.Response: God is just (Romans 2:11).
- God has provided the way of salvation to all (John 3:16,17; 2 Corinthians 5:14,15; 1 Timothy 2:6; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Peter 3:9).
- Even those who haven’t heard of Christ are accountable for God’s revelation in nature (Romans 1:20). God will seek those who seek Him (Matthew 7:7; Luke 19:10).
- Therefore God doesn’t send people to hell, they choose it (Romans 1:18,21,25).
Response: God is holy-perfect (1 Peter 1:14,15).
- Sin is willful opposition to God our creator (Romans 1:18-32).
- Our sin does merit hell (Romans 1:32; 2:2,5,6).
- What is unfair and amazing is that Christ died for our sin and freely offers salvation to all (Romans 2:4; 3:22-24; 4:7,8; 5:8,9).
Biblical Terms Describing Where the Dead Are
- Sheol - a Hebrew term simply describing “the grave” or “death” – Does not refer to “hell” specifically
- Hades - A Greek term that usually refers to hell – a place of torment (Luke 10:15; 16:23, etc.)
- Gehenna - A Greek term (borrowed from a literal burning dump near Jerusalem) that always refers to hell – a place of torment (Matthew 5:30; 23:33)
- “Lake of fire”- the final abode of unbelievers after they are resurrected (Revelation 20:14,15)
- “Abraham’s bosom” - (Luke 16:22) a place of eternal comfort
- “Paradise” - (Luke 23:43) a place of eternal comfort
- “With the Lord” - a key phrase describes where church age believers are after death (Philippians 1:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 5:8)
- “New heavens and earth” – where believers will be after they are resurrected (Revelation 20:4-6; 21:1-4)
Conclusion
Our curiosity about the abode of the dead is not completely satisfied by biblical terms or verses. What we do know is that either eternal torment in hell or eternal joy in heaven awaits all people after death, based on whether they trust in Christ’s payment for sin or reject Christ.Related Topics: Hell
Believe
Active member
@Fool4Christ
The path of the wise leads upward to life, that he may avoid [the gloom] in the depths of Sheol (Hades, the place of the dead). Proverbs 15:24
The path of the wise leads upward to life, that he may avoid [the gloom] in the depths of Sheol (Hades, the place of the dead). Proverbs 15:24
As time permits, I would like to consider some of these points. Later....RB
Horatius
Member
Various theories on the location of hell have been put forward. A traditional view is that hell is in the center of the earth. Others propose that hell is located in outer space in a black hole. In the Old Testament, the word translated “hell” is Sheol; in the New Testament, it’s Hades (meaning “unseen”) and Gehenna (“the Valley of Hinnom”). Sheol is also translated as “pit” and “grave.” Both Sheol and Hades refer to a temporary abode of the dead before judgment (Psalm 9:17; Revelation 1:18). Gehenna refers to an eternal state of punishment for the wicked dead (Mark 9:43).
The idea that hell is below us, perhaps in the center of the earth, comes from passages such as Luke 10:15: “And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell” (KJV). Also, in 1 Samuel 28:13-15, the medium of Endor sees the spirit of Samuel “coming up out of the ground.” We should note, however, that neither of these passages is concerned with the geographic location of hell. Capernaum’s being thrust “down” is probably a reference to their being condemned rather than a physical direction. And the medium’s vision of Samuel was just that: a vision.
In the King James Version, Ephesians 4:9 says that before Jesus ascended into heaven, “he also descended . . . into the lower parts of the earth.” Some Christians take “the lower parts of the earth” as a reference to hell, where they say Jesus spent the time between His death and resurrection. However, the New International Version gives a better translation: “he also descended to the lower, earthly regions.” This verse simply says that Jesus came to earth. It’s a reference to His incarnation, not to His location after death.
The notion that hell is somewhere in outer space, possibly in a black hole, is based on the knowledge that black holes are places of great heat and pressure from which nothing, not even light, can escape. Surprisingly, this concept of hell is presented in the 1979 Walt Disney film The Black Hole. Near the movie’s end, all the characters pass through a black hole. On the other side, the villain finds himself in a fiery place of torment, while the other characters enjoy disembodied bliss. It’s interesting that a Disney movie would include a depiction of hell, but it’s best not to base our theology on movies!
Another speculation is that the earth itself will be the “lake of fire” spoken of in Revelation 20:10-15. When the earth is destroyed by fire (2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 21:1), the theory goes, God will use that burning sphere as the everlasting place of torment for the ungodly. Again, this is mere speculation.
To sum up, Scripture does not tell us the geological (or cosmological) location of hell. Hell is a literal place of real torment, but we do not know where it is. Hell may have a physical location in this universe, or it may be in an entirely different “dimension.” Whatever the case, the location of hell is far less important than the need to avoid going there.
Got?
The idea that hell is below us, perhaps in the center of the earth, comes from passages such as Luke 10:15: “And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell” (KJV). Also, in 1 Samuel 28:13-15, the medium of Endor sees the spirit of Samuel “coming up out of the ground.” We should note, however, that neither of these passages is concerned with the geographic location of hell. Capernaum’s being thrust “down” is probably a reference to their being condemned rather than a physical direction. And the medium’s vision of Samuel was just that: a vision.
In the King James Version, Ephesians 4:9 says that before Jesus ascended into heaven, “he also descended . . . into the lower parts of the earth.” Some Christians take “the lower parts of the earth” as a reference to hell, where they say Jesus spent the time between His death and resurrection. However, the New International Version gives a better translation: “he also descended to the lower, earthly regions.” This verse simply says that Jesus came to earth. It’s a reference to His incarnation, not to His location after death.
The notion that hell is somewhere in outer space, possibly in a black hole, is based on the knowledge that black holes are places of great heat and pressure from which nothing, not even light, can escape. Surprisingly, this concept of hell is presented in the 1979 Walt Disney film The Black Hole. Near the movie’s end, all the characters pass through a black hole. On the other side, the villain finds himself in a fiery place of torment, while the other characters enjoy disembodied bliss. It’s interesting that a Disney movie would include a depiction of hell, but it’s best not to base our theology on movies!
Another speculation is that the earth itself will be the “lake of fire” spoken of in Revelation 20:10-15. When the earth is destroyed by fire (2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 21:1), the theory goes, God will use that burning sphere as the everlasting place of torment for the ungodly. Again, this is mere speculation.
To sum up, Scripture does not tell us the geological (or cosmological) location of hell. Hell is a literal place of real torment, but we do not know where it is. Hell may have a physical location in this universe, or it may be in an entirely different “dimension.” Whatever the case, the location of hell is far less important than the need to avoid going there.
Got?
Believe
Active member
I forgot all about this one:
23 And in Hades (the realm of the dead), being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried out and said, Father Abraham, have pity and mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Child, remember that you in your lifetime fully received [what is due you in] comforts and delights, and Lazarus in like manner the discomforts and distresses; but now he is comforted here and you are in anguish.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who want to pass from this [place] to you may not be able, and no one may pass from there to us.
27 And [the man] said, Then, father, I beseech you to send him to my father’s house—
28 For I have five brothers—so that he may give [solemn] testimony and warn them, lest they too come into this place of torment.
29 But Abraham said, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear and listen to them.
30 But he answered, No, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent (change their minds for the better and heartily amend their ways, with abhorrence of their past sins).
31 He said to him, If they do not hear and listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded and convinced and believe [even] if someone should rise from the dead.
Luke 16:23–31.
23 And in Hades (the realm of the dead), being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried out and said, Father Abraham, have pity and mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Child, remember that you in your lifetime fully received [what is due you in] comforts and delights, and Lazarus in like manner the discomforts and distresses; but now he is comforted here and you are in anguish.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who want to pass from this [place] to you may not be able, and no one may pass from there to us.
27 And [the man] said, Then, father, I beseech you to send him to my father’s house—
28 For I have five brothers—so that he may give [solemn] testimony and warn them, lest they too come into this place of torment.
29 But Abraham said, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear and listen to them.
30 But he answered, No, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent (change their minds for the better and heartily amend their ways, with abhorrence of their past sins).
31 He said to him, If they do not hear and listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded and convinced and believe [even] if someone should rise from the dead.
Luke 16:23–31.
