brightfame52
Active Member
Its not about luck, its about the truth
Is believing/faith a work ?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Doug Brents
Active Member
I give you up to your master. I am done with your nonsense.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
You should of me also
brightfame52
Active Member
See ya on judgment day
brightfame52
Active Member
Yeah I see what you post
FreeInChrist
Active Member
But do you understand it?
brightfame52
Active Member
Yeah as error
brightfame52
Active Member
The only time believing isn't a work is when its understood that the Faith in which a believer believes did not originate from within him or herself, but it was granted to them by Sovereign Grace, otherwise believing faith defaults to a work of man naturally from within himself. 23
FreeInChrist
Active Member
OK folks... @brightfame52 may be starting to see the light for they just posted this "otherwise believing faith defaults to a work of man naturally from within himself. " for the first time I have read him say believing faith naturally from within himself.
NOW... lets tackle that works word and all will be golden.
brightfame52
Active Member
Well as long as one believes that their own faith or act of believing is a condition they meet prior to salvation being bestowed, then thats works salvation, merit based salvation.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Okay.... nice and slow.
@brightfame52 , Your claim sounds strong, but it actually rests on a category mistake.
Please try to follow this..... The key distinction is
Condition does not equal Merit
And Instrument does not equal Cause
And Reception does not equal Achievement
Because if these are collapsed, then anything short of universalism becomes “works.”
One at a time......
Why a “condition” does not equal a “work”
A work is something that earns merits and obligates God. Aldo contributes value toward justification,Faith does none of those things.
Scripture never describes faith as a payment, a contribution, a moral achievement, or a qualifying righteousness.
Instead, faith is consistently described as empty-handed reception.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
(Please pay careful attention to this verse... You have for months been all over us saying that those in the flesh God would not save. Yet right here we are told .... but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly,..... "Him" justifies the ungodly.)
Paul explicitly contrasts believing with working. If believing were a work, this sentence would be nonsense.
Why faith is not a “meritorious act”
Merit depends on what is offered. Works offer something of value YET Faith offers nothing.
Faith is not praised for its strength or quality. It is praised only for its object.
Faith does not save because it is virtuous. Faith saves because it unites the sinner to Christ
Scripture says: “faith in Christ”, not “faith as righteousness”.
How about The instrumental cause
Classic Christian theology (pre-Reformation and Reformation alike) makes this distinction:Efficient cause of salvation = God alone
Meritorious cause = Christ alone
Instrumental cause = faith
Ground = grace
An instrument does not create what it receives. A hand receiving bread is not baking the bread.
If receiving were “work,” then,
eating would be earning.... drinking would be deserving.... opening your mouth would be merit
Yet Scripture uses exactly those metaphors.
Now see Why “faith prior to salvation” still isn’t works
The argument you always argue against “Is faith comes before salvation, so you must believe it must cause salvation.”
If this is true.......That assumption is false.
Order does not equal cause
Simple Example,
A patient must consent before surgery but Consent does not perform the surgery
Scripture is crystal clear (THIS IS IMPORTANT)
Faith precedes justification HOWEVER Faith does not produce justification
Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Faith IS the means, not the source.
There is a fatal consequence of calling faith a work
If faith itself is a work, then
Abraham was justified by works (contrary to Rom 4),
The thief on the cross earned salvation,
Jesus was wrong to say “only believe”,
And Salvation by grace alone becomes impossible.
Even more devastating:
Unbelief would then be a virtue, because refraining from “working” would be refraining from faith.
Yes, That IS absurd, and Scripture never reasons that way.
Lets close this out by considering Why Scripture never treats belief as moral achievement
Notice what Scripture condemns...
Pride in works , Boasting, and Self-righteousness.
But it never condemns....
Believing too soon, Believing before regeneration, or believing as “trying too hard”
Instead, unbelief is always treated as refusal, not humility.
John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. ( THIS IS ANOTHER VERSE YOU NEED TO LEARN )
Refusal is not the absence of works , it is resistance.
Faith is not a work because it contributes nothing, earns nothing, obligates nothing, and boasts in nothing — it merely receives what grace freely gives.
brightfame52
Active Member
Well as long as one believes that their own faith or act of believing is a condition they meet prior to salvation being bestowed, then thats works salvation, merit based salvation.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Well until you can read the scriptures enough to understand what they say, and which I explained here you will always be in the wrong.
Why is it @brightfame52 , that for all the scripture references your responders offer you never once, that I have seen, have said the scriptures are wrong? I sunmit that is because you choose to not read your opponents and just care to pipe up with the same old, same old with out much explanation.... Even my last post to you begs for comment and all you came back with is "
And that statement is the reason I posted to you in the first place. And again you call Paul a liar because you have no valid reason to not believe him.... so you ignore him. Sheeeesh!!!!!!
A work is something that earns merits and obligates God. Also contributes value toward justification,
Faith does none of those things.
Scripture never describes faith as a payment, a contribution, a moral achievement, or a qualifying righteousness.
Instead, faith is consistently described as empty-handed reception.
PAUL......
Romans 4:5 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"
Merit depends on what is offered. Works offer something of value YET Faith offers nothing.
Faith is not praised for its strength or quality. It is praised only for its object.
Faith does not save because it is virtuous. Faith saves because it unites the sinner to Christ
Scripture says: “faith in Christ”, not “faith as righteousness”.
There is a fatal consequence of calling faith a work
If faith itself is a work, then
Abraham was justified by works (contrary to Rom 4),
The thief on the cross earned salvation,
Jesus was wrong to say “only believe”,
And Salvation by grace alone becomes impossible.
Even more devastating:
Unbelief would then be a virtue, because refraining from “working” would be refraining from faith.
Faith is not a work because it contributes nothing, earns nothing, obligates nothing, and boasts in nothing — it merely receives what grace freely gives.
All of these sentences are statements of truth, truly stated.
brightfame52
Active Member
Well as long as one believes that their own faith or act of believing is a condition they meet prior to salvation being bestowed, then thats works salvation, merit based salvation.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
You made my point. I just said.... I submit that is because you choose to not read your opponents and just care to pipe up with the same old, same old
And here you are with the copy and paste version of your standard reply
brightfame52
Active Member
Well as long as one believes that their own faith or act of believing is a condition they meet prior to salvation being bestowed, then thats works salvation, merit based salvation.
Darby
Active Member
God gives the grace to have faith and believe.
For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law’s demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]
Ephesians 2:8–9
And when [Apollos] wished to cross to Achaia (most of Greece), the brethren wrote to the disciples there, urging and encouraging them to accept and welcome him heartily. When he arrived, he proved a great help to those who through grace (God’s unmerited favor and mercy) had believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Christ as Lord and Savior).
Acts 18:27
For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law’s demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]
Ephesians 2:8–9
And when [Apollos] wished to cross to Achaia (most of Greece), the brethren wrote to the disciples there, urging and encouraging them to accept and welcome him heartily. When he arrived, he proved a great help to those who through grace (God’s unmerited favor and mercy) had believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Christ as Lord and Savior).
Acts 18:27
brightfame52
Active Member
Is Faith here of oneself or is it a gift from God with salvation?
Darby
Active Member
Read the post.
brightfame52
Active Member
I did read it
Similar threads
