In 1 John 4, Where is the Love?

atpollard

Well-known member
1 John 4 [ESV]

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.
People keep saying “God is love”, pointing to 1 John 4 and then launching into a diatribe of eisegesis 100% unrelated to anything John had to say. So here it is, posted above, two full paragraphs from the Apostle John on God and Love.

According to 1 John 4 … WHERE IS THE LOVE?
 
1 John 4 [ESV]

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.
People keep saying “God is love”, pointing to 1 John 4 and then launching into a diatribe of eisegesis 100% unrelated to anything Jon had to say. So here it is, posted above, two full paragraphs from the Apostle John on God and Love.

According to 1 John 4 … WHERE IS THE LOVE?

In many verses above.
 
In many verses above.
True, but not much of an exegesis.

Who loves whom according to 1 John 4?
Is it a speech all about the limitless love of God for all sinful men without exception, or did John have some other subject in mind?
 
True, but not much of an exegesis.

Who loves whom according to 1 John 4?
Is it a speech all about the limitless love of God for all sinful men without exception, or did John have some other subject in mind?

I think it is found in verse 9 in reference to believers.
 
There is a Rabbinical teaching technique [it has a name that I cannot remember because all Hebrew words jam together consonants that don't belong together and end up sounding like a sneeze and a cough at the same time]. Jesus used this Rabbinical teaching technique when He (Jesus) jammed together [Deuteronomy 6:5] "And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength." with [Leviticus 19:18] '... but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD." In this teaching technique, the Rabbi is saying that these two verses from different places in Scripture are linked together and one explains the other. They are typically connected by a common word or phrase ["you shall love" in this case]. The Rabbi does not explain the "point" to His (Jesus' in this case) students ... they must figure out how one verse explains the other and the two are tied together on their own.

In Jesus' case, the message of the teaching was one that John understood and repeated for Believers in his letters: You cannot love God without loving your neighbor and you cannot love your neighbor without loving God. In both cases, it was not a "warm, fuzzy feeling" or even an easy to carry burden sort of LOVE. It was a radical, "ALL IN" Love. The words used to describe our Love for God in Deuteronomy 6 describe a love that is with "all of your EVERYTHING!" [Go and look up the original Hebrew words and see what they really mean.] The love that we are to have for our neighbor is a sacrificial love - a love that costs us something. So Jesus' message was "The LAW and PROPHETS are summed us in this ... Love God with all your everything so you can love people sacrificially" and "Love people sacrificially so that you can love God with all your everything." It was not TWO commandments, but one ... they are inseparable. John and James both understood and commented on the lesson in their letters.

That is what John was talking about in 1 John 4 by applying the lesson to the far more practical group of God and Believers loving "one another". Baby steps. ;)

[I bet you never expected THAT message from a T.U.L.I.P. wielding Particular Baptist. :ROFLMAO: ]
 
True, but not much of an exegesis.

Who loves whom according to 1 John 4?
Is it a speech all about the limitless love of God for all sinful men without exception, or did John have some other subject in mind?
Here are the only three uses of “propitiation” in the KJV:

“Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation(G2435) through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” (Rom 3:25-26)

“And he is the propitiation (G2434) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)

“Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation(G2434) for our sins.” (1 John 4:10)

2/3 are used by John in his 1st epistle that bears his name. Both of them have to do with Gods love. Context is King as they say. :)

As we will see, this is a very poor word to use to translate the original Greek.

Here are the definitions given for the Greek words used for propitiation:

Original Word Definitions

G2434 ἱλασμός hilasmos hil-as-mos’

a root word; n m;
AV-propitiation 2; 2
1) an appeasing, propitiating
2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

G2435 ἱλαστήριον hilasterion hil-as-tay’-ree-on
from a derivative of G2433; n n;
AV-propitiation 1, mercyseat 1; 2
1) relating to an appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory; a means of appeasing or expiating, a propitiation
1a)
used of the cover of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies, which was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim on the annual day of atonement (this rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they had merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim, and that God by this ceremony was appeased and their sins expiated); hence the lid of expiation, the propitiatory
1b) an expiatory sacrifice
1c) an expiatory victim

Since G2435 comes from G2433 we should look at that word:

2433 ἱλάσκομαι hilaskomai hil-as’-kom-ahee
middle voice from the same as 2436; v;
AV-be merciful 1, make reconciliation 1; 2
1) to render one’s self, to appease, conciliate to one’s self
1a) to become propitious, be placated or appeased
1b) to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful
2) to expiate, make propitiation for

There is only one other verse that uses “hilasterion” (G2435):

“And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; (G2435) of which we cannot now speak particularly.” (Heb 9:5)

That verse suggests that “hilasterion” is a place where mercy is given – quite different from the usual meaning of propitiation.

So, if that word had been used in Romans 3:25, would that give the verse a different meaning?

“Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiationmercy seat …”

It literally means “a place or means of reconciliation, a place where atonement or unity and at-one-ment takes place.”

The only two verses that use “hilaskomai” (G2433) are:

“And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful (G2433) to me a sinner.” (Luke 18:13)

“Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for (G2433) the sins of the people.” (Heb 2:17)

Those verses do not suggest anything like propitiation. What are the effects of the translation of a word meaning mercy seat as propitiation? They can’t be good.

Where did the Concept of Propitiation Come From?

Many (if not all) pagan cultures embrace the concept of propitiation and appeasement. Here is another example of modern misunderstanding:

“… Propitiation is an ancient word, which we as Christians have in common with other world religions. To propitiate a god is to offer a sacrifice that turns aside the god’s wrath. Anyone who believes in a god knows that they need some way to stay on the friendly side of that god. So they give gifts to the god, or serve in the temple, or give alms. And if the god is angry with them, they pay a price, or make a sacrifice, or find some way to soothe the god’s anger: they propitiate him.”(https://maney.us/blog/2014/03/25/trevin-wax-pagan-propitiation-vs-biblical-propitiation/)

Do we really need a way to stay on the friendly side of God? What about “God is love”?

Here are verses using “propitiation” (in the KJV):

“God presented Jesus as the way and the means of restoration. Now, through the trust established by the evidence of God’s character revealed when Christ died, we may partake of the Remedy procured by Christ. God did this to demonstrate that he is right and good — because in his forbearance he suspended, for a time, the ultimate consequence of us being out of harmony with his design for life — yet he has been falsely accused of being unfair. 26 He did it to demonstrate at the present time how right and good he is, so that he would also be seen as being right when he heals those who trust in Jesus.” (Rom 3:25-26, )

“This is what real love is: It is not that we have loved God, or that we have done something to get him to love us, but that he loved us so much that he sent his Son to become the Remedy and cure for the infection of sin and selfishness so that through him we might be restored into perfect unity with God.” (1 John 4:10, ) https://characterofgod.org/propitiation-definition/

hope this helps
 
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How does this fit into Calvinism ?

agapé: love, goodwill
Original Word: ἀγάπη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: agapé
Phonetic Spelling: (ag-ah'-pay)
Definition: love, goodwill
Usage: love, benevolence, good will, esteem;

Benevolence means kindness, doing good to another, looking out for their well being.


John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Matthew 22:36-40
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your Godwith all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 15:12
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

1 Corinthians 13
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Galatians 5:22-26
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Ephesians 5:2 -and walk in love, just as Christ loved us and gave Himself up for us as a fragrant sacrificial offering to God.

Colossians 2:2
That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Colossians 3:12
Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

1 John 2
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

1 John 3
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 4:1-12
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.


1 John 4
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1 John 5
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith

hope this helps !!!
 
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Loving those who love you is not Gods love that is human love. Jesus said in Luke 6:32-33 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And indeed, if you do good to those doing good to you, what credit is it to you? For even sinners do the same. Luke 6:35- But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

hope this helps !!!
 
True, but not much of an exegesis.

Who loves whom according to 1 John 4?
Is it a speech all about the limitless love of God for all sinful men without exception, or did John have some other subject in mind?
In 1 John 4:10 hilasmos/ translated as propitiation in some translations there cannot mean sooth anger and must mean something else( Expiation) than what is taught in christendom. God says love 3 times in that passage so it cannot mean anger being soothed. It means expiation as in covering for sin.

I always go to Christ who is God as my primary source of truth. His teaching must not contradict anyone else in scripture. If there seems to be a contradiction then it is with mans understanding on the topic not from Jesus teaching. He is God and He is the authority on all things. Not once did Jesus even hint Hid death was propitiation as taught by the reformers meaning appeasing an angry deity- that concept is pagan. That is why propitiation is not a good translation, expiation is the better translation and meaning in 1 John.

How did He view His own death- the atonement ?

We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15 Substitution, Ransom

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution

8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28- Expiation

The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John. Gods’ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Gods’ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin.

If we were to read propitiation ( appease an angry god as the meaning ) in 1 John 4:10 look at how absurd if reads.

This is love:
not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to appease our angry god , to appease His anger, to appease his angry self etc.......for our sins.

That makes no sense at all theologically , grammatically or contextually. It’s a contradiction, an oxymoron.


hope this helps !!!
 
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In tulip where is the love for the non elect ? Where is the benevolence ? Where is the kindness ? Where is the goodness ?

You see from my posts this morning it goes against the very nature and character of our Good, Benevolent, Loving God who in LOVE sent His Son to be the sacrifice for our sins and not only our sins but the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD- without exception. 1 John 2:2

hope this helps !!!
 
In tulip where is the love for the non elect ? Where is the benevolence ? Where is the kindness ? Where is the goodness ?

You see from my posts this morning it goes against the very nature and character of our Good, Benevolent, Loving God who in LOVE sent His Son to be the sacrifice for our sins and not only our sins but the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD- without exception. 1 John 2:2

hope this helps !!!

Ah.. but you know some people are just special like that.... I can tell because they claim it for themselves. Surely they wouldn't get this wrong because of their "depraved" nature......
 
Ah.. but you know some people are just special like that.... I can tell because they claim for themselves. Surely they wouldn't get this wrong because of their "depraved" nature......
Don't you know that God regenerates the God haters so they can love Him but not by their own choice but because God saves them first unknowingly by regenerating them before they ever hear the gospel so they can believe. That all comes after God regenerates them against their own wills. This is the exact opposites of how people and God actually loves.
 
Unless I have missed something in the plethora of responses (so disappointingly few of which actually focused on exegesis of 1 John 4), the "GOD IS LOVE: therefore FREE WILL, not TULIP" argument centers on the single verse [1 John 4:10] and has NOTHING to do with the rest of the paragraph containing that verse or the next paragraph which continues the same subject (from John).

I would prefer to save the "propitiation" vs "expiation" discussion for another time and place, I do not believe that the context is focused on splitting that particular hair and "Jesus as propitiation" would hardly impact the "GOD IS LOVE: therefore FREE WILL not TULIP" argument one iota. It just "kicks the ball down the field" for human speculation of the details of the Divine Mechanism.

Let us focus, instead on something more central to both 1 John 4 and the heart of the question:

1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation[/expiation] for our sins.​

Who is "we" and "us" and "our" in verse 10 based upon the context of the whole paragraph?

1 John 4:7-12​
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
Sounds like SAINTS to me: "Beloved", love one another", "born of God" "knows God", God's love "made manifest among us", "live through him", "have loved God", "[propitiation/expiation] for our sins", "God so loved us", "God abides in us" and "his love is perfected in us".

Can it be said all that is true of the reprobates (those described in Romans 1 that God "gave over to" their desires)?
"All without exception" cannot be the beloved "we" and "us" and "our" of 1 John 4.
 
True, but not much of an exegesis.

Who loves whom according to 1 John 4?
Is it a speech all about the limitless love of God for all sinful men without exception, or did John have some other subject in mind?
Nice try as God is addressing the spirit of antichrist in the passage. You are equivocating:)
 
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