If Jesus is really the Messiah, and if he is so important, why doesn’t the Torah speak of him?

judaism as a religion rejected His covenant, which was to come to Him and return to the promised land (paradise)
Instead, they chose to continue with their traditions and cursed themselves...

Obviously many souls loved God and cooperated Him and met Christ in the OT and are Christians.
rejection can be of misinformation, or simple Ignorance. let's see an example. many believed that the Messiah would come and overcome the Romans .... "physically" as "saviours" Just as was done before. well, this was misinformation. because this saviour was to save them from their own sins which was the root cause of their physical bondage. see in old times when Israel sin, God would allow a nation to put them in physical bondage. they would cry out and repent. God would send a saviour to deliver them from physical bondage. this cycle, (they sin, God put them in bondage. they cry out in repentance; God sends a saviour) this went on and on, over, and over. well God put an end to this cycle. he ended the root cause... SIN.

this saviour is to deliver the people from their sins. Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." this was the misinformation the people did not understand. they were looking for a saviour to deliver them from the Romans occupation of their land...... and not their deliverance from their "OWN SIN". then as now with the unitarians today, believe that the Lord Jesus the Christ did not fulfill the deliverance from the romans....... IGNORANCE.

101G.
 
rejection can be of misinformation, or simple Ignorance. let's see an example. many believed that the Messiah would come and overcome the Romans .... "physically" as "saviours" Just as was done before. well, this was misinformation. because this saviour was to save them from their own sins which was the root cause of their physical bondage. see in old times when Israel sin, God would allow a nation to put them in physical bondage. they would cry out and repent. God would send a saviour to deliver them from physical bondage. this cycle, (they sin, God put them in bondage. they cry out in repentance; God sends a saviour) this went on and on, over, and over. well God put an end to this cycle. he ended the root cause... SIN.

this saviour is to deliver the people from their sins. Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." this was the misinformation the people did not understand. they were looking for a saviour to deliver them from the Romans occupation of their land...... and not their deliverance from their "OWN SIN". then as now with the unitarians today, believe that the Lord Jesus the Christ did not fulfill the deliverance from the romans....... IGNORANCE.

101G.
I get that you see the historical situation.. but consider that every word God says
applies to all of His Souls, now, not just as events that are now dusty history in the OT.
 
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rejection can be of misinformation, or simple Ignorance. let's see an example. many believed that the Messiah would come and overcome the Romans .... "physically" as "saviours" Just as was done before. well, this was misinformation. because this saviour was to save them from their own sins which was the root cause of their physical bondage. see in old times when Israel sin, God would allow a nation to put them in physical bondage. they would cry out and repent. God would send a saviour to deliver them from physical bondage. this cycle, (they sin, God put them in bondage. they cry out in repentance; God sends a saviour) this went on and on, over, and over. well God put an end to this cycle. he ended the root cause... SIN.

this saviour is to deliver the people from their sins. Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." this was the misinformation the people did not understand. they were looking for a saviour to deliver them from the Romans occupation of their land...... and not their deliverance from their "OWN SIN". then as now with the unitarians today, believe that the Lord Jesus the Christ did not fulfill the deliverance from the romans....... IGNORANCE.

101G.
the continual only looking at the OT fathers context on this earth
and esau with help from pastors hiding the other Reality...
is exactly what satan wants.
 
The Torah is actually full of symbolism and foreshadowing. The mystery to be progressively revealed according to God's timeline.
Numbers 2 - the arrangements of the tribes. The sign of the cross. With the tabernacle in the centre.

The purposes of the Feasts of Yahweh foreshadow the Messiah. It's especially evident in the Passover (the sacrifice of the lamb) and the Feast of First Fruits.
 
those vested in judaism rejected His prophets
could not hear Him
and then in that cursed state
wrote down their version.
"Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him." - 1 Kings 19:18 [NKJV]
"But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they [are] not all Israel who [are] of Israel," - Romans 9:6 [NKJV]

The TARES do not negate the WHEAT.
 
I get that you see the historical situation.. but consider that every word God says
applies to all of His Souls, now, not just as events that are now dusty history in the OT.
Acts 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:" Acts 17:31 "Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

101G
 
the continual only looking at the OT fathers context on this earth
and esau with help from pastors hiding the other Reality...
is exactly what satan wants.
1 Corinthians 4:5 "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God."

101G.
 
If Jesus is really the Messiah, and if he is so important, why doesn’t the Torah speak of him at all?
المحتوى
You would be surprised to see how many passages and concepts actually point to Jesus the Messiah in the Torah. But before you question my beliefs, are you aware that the Torah doesn’t say much about the “traditional” Jewish Messiah? Does this mean the Messiah is unimportant to traditional Judaism? And the Torah says nothing about the oral law. What does this imply? You might want to think twice about your argument.
Johann, such posts is why it is unnecessarily difficult to have a conversation with you. Presumptuous you are that the reader:
  1. holds that the Torah does not speak AT ALL about their own Messiah.
  2. would be surprised by the contents of the Torah.
  3. question your beliefs prematurely
  4. asking if we are aware of your opinion of Torah - without you actually expressing what that opinion is.
  5. implying what is unimportant in a religion that is not your own.
  6. has not thought sufficiently about an argument we may not even have.
You've certainly cornered the reader AS IF you are God (certainly a god), so far above our ability to comprehend, it pains you to attempt to talk to us peons.

Completely missing is your own thesis. Seems like the object of discussion (the Messiah in the Torah) is thinly disguising the subject of the OP (you're self-aggrandizing).

Even when I agree with you, the approach you take is still over the top, disagreeable. Did Jesus approach people this way? I'm asking for a friend. :LOL:
 
judaism as a religion rejected His covenant, which was to come to Him and return to the promised land (paradise)
Instead, they chose to continue with their traditions and cursed themselves...

Obviously many souls loved God and cooperated Him and met Christ in the OT and are Christians.
101G agree, but this is why we, (who know and understand), must help those who don't, the GREAT COMMISSION, Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Matthew 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

God can change any man or woman mind. but as the Holy Spirit said via his apostle, God wills all men to be save. hence our work. how can they believe if they have not heard, and how do they hear unless they have a preacher? ..... (Well preach until the Lord Jesus returns for the final time). you can only give account to what you have done, and not what someone else did or didn't do. run your race, finish your course. and let the Lord Jesus give you a crown.

101G.
 
the first mention of the Messiah is in Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

seed here is singular, meaning ONLY "ONE". better known as the LAST ADAM, God himself, the Ordinal Last coming in his own Image, (man), to save us from sin.

101G
 
The second place where the Messiah is mentioned clearly is in Genesis 49:10 and 11. which is in line with the NEW COVENANT, and this NEW COVENANT will be a binding one. what do this means? it means neither God nor man can break it.... hence an "EVERLASTING" Covenant for an everlasting God, and an everlasting people of God.

because Israel broke the first covenant. hence the change in the Priesthood, and the Law. for all things will be administered by the SEED of Genesis 3:16, and foretold in Isaiah 9:6. for the Government, (or way of life), will be upon his shoulders ... Isaiah 9:7

and in this new Covenant he, the Messiah will be the ADVOCATE, Mediator, and intercessor of the Covenant. proof by scripture, Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

this word "Supplications" is synonyms with intercession. and our ADVOCATE is God himself The Lord Jesus, the Holy Spirit. confirmation scripture. 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

here "ADVOCATE" is the Greek word,
G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.

[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter
Root(s): G3844, G2822

notice definition #2. "intercessor" the Spirit of supplications, in Zechariah 12:10. this synonyms word for supplications can be found at https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/supplications.html#C0-1

so, our Messiah is found through out the OT. and heavily found in Isaiah 53

Oh by the way, one do know that the Messiah is God the Holy Spirit..... POST RESURRECTION

be blessed and edified.

101G
 
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seed here is singular, meaning ONLY "ONE". better known as the LAST ADAM, God himself, the Ordinal Last coming in his own Image, (man), to save us from sin.
Didn’t you write elsewhere that God is WITH the last, not IS the last?
 
Didn’t you write elsewhere that God is WITH the last, not IS the last?
yes, the "LAST". right here, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." The same one person, how do 101G know this? because of this scripture. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." ... (SMILE). same one person.

now, watch this. you seen the "with" used in Isaiah 41:4 which is ALSO. now the "With" here, 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" SAME ONE PERSON, and here, John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." , as well as here, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

see it now? the same one person in the ECHAD.

the Advocate is Jesus, the Spirit, the Intercessor is Jesus the Spirit, and the Comforter is Jesus the Spirit.

101G.
 
Didn’t you write elsewhere that God is WITH the last, not IS the last?
to make sure it's "THE LAST", one and only one person. go to bible hub and it's Lexicon on Isaiah 48:16 and on LAST and Brown-Driver-Briggs tells us it's THE Last, here is the link for yourself. https://biblehub.com/hebrew/314.htm



Brown-Driver-Briggs
אַחֲרוֺן51 feminine אַחֲרוֺנָה plural אַחֲרֹנִים (also אַחֲרוֺנִים adjective from אַחַר, coming after or behind (as a comparative or superlative, according to the context); hence
a. of place, behind, hindermost Genesis 33:2 (twice in verse); הָאַחֲרוֺן הַיָּם the hinder (= the Western) sea (i.e. the Mediterranean: opposed to הַיָּם הַקַּדְמוֺנִי the front sea = the Dead Sea, the Semites, in defining the quarters of the heavens, turning naturally to the East, compare קֶדֶם of the East, יָמִין, תֵּימָן of the South, above under the word אָחוֺר d. and Assyrian mat a—arru 'the Western land,' of Phoenicia & Palestine) Deuteronomy 11:24; Deuteronomy 34:2; Joel 2:20; Zechariah 14:8; Job 18:20 poetic אַחֲרֹנִים Ew Hi Di De the dwellers in the West (opposed to קַדְמוֺנִים). More commonly

b. of time, latter or last (according to context) Exodus 4:8; Deuteronomy 24:3; 2 Samuel 19:12; Isaiah 8:23, of God Isaiah 44:6 ("" רִאשׁוֺן) Isaiah 48:12 (do.) compare Isaiah 41:4; in Genl. subsequent (vaguely), ׳יוֺם א = time to come Isaiah 30:8; Proverbs 31:25 (but Nehemiah 8:18 הַיוֺם ׳הָאַ = the last day), ׳(הָ)אַ (הַ)דּוֺר the following Generation Deuteronomy 29:21; Psalm 48:14; Psalm 78:4; Psalm 78:6; Psalm 102:19, (הָ)אַחֲרֹנִים they that come after Job 18:20 (Ges Schl) Ecclesiastes 1:11; Ecclesiastes 4:16, but Isaiah 41:4 the last,

101G.
 
see it now?
I've always seen it. What shocks me is how others are blind to it.
the Advocate is Jesus, the Spirit, the Intercessor is Jesus the Spirit, and the Comforter is Jesus the Spirit.
Jesus is not a spirit or the spirit. He is a man who has a body like other men. He is the advocate and intercessor but the comforter is the Spirit of God.

Having written all this, I fear this hijacks the thread. But then again, this thread was hijacked by the OP. So, there is that.

the same one person in the ECHAD.
I don't know about the ECHAD. It sounds like a word from a foreign language.
 
I've always seen it. What shocks me is how others are blind to it.
it just take time for it to settle in. we all were taught in ERROR, but never complain at it. just THANK GOD THAT WE NOW KNOW THE TRUTH.
Jesus is not a spirit or the spirit. He is a man who has a body like other men. He is the advocate and intercessor but the comforter is the Spirit of God.

Having written all this, I fear this hijacks the thread. But then again, this thread was hijacked by the OP. So, there is that.
no, you're on track, and on topic. listen, Romans 15:4 "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."
understand this, the OT is the NT HIDDEN, and the NT is the OT "REVEALED". so in the NT we're speaking about the Lord Jesus in the OT.

now as for the Lord Jesus as the Spirit. scripture, NT, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
that term "being" is present tense. and the term "Form" is NATURE, and the NATURE of God is "Spirit", (per John 4:24). and upon his resurrection he is Glorified again in it. scripture, John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." question, "what was he before the world was?" answer "Spirit". for there was no flesh bone and blood before the world. so the Lord Jesus is Spirit in Flesh. understand the INNER MAN vs the OUTWARD man.... ok.
I don't know about the ECHAD. It sounds like a word from a foreign language.
it's not hard to understand. it is the Hebrew term "ONE". but this "ONE" is not in Cardinal designations, but in Ordinal designations. let's see it in scripture. Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"
ONE here, as said is the Hebrew word, H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj. I'm using the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments. and this what it means.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.

[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

definition #1 is what many scholars run with but are incorrect. definition #2. is the correct rending the ECHAD of God. as I gave an example before, it demonstrates the "ECHAD" perfectly.

Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." when one look at this verse, it seem to speak of two separate persons or two entities. NO, it is speaking of only ONE Entity, GOD himself. and here is how 101G know this. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." God is the FIRST, the LORD, all caps as stated in Deuteronomy 6:4. but he's 'ALSO" the Last. and "ALSO" means, "in addition; too". so God is a "ANOTHER" of himself? yes, as the same ONE PERSON, but with a "EQUALLY SHARED" nature as Phil 2:6 states.

this is the "ECHAD of God as ONE PERSON, which is confirmed in both the OT as well as the NT. in the NT, the Greek term "ANOTHER" here, relating to God is G243 ALLOS. which means, "a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort" the NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE is as said Ordinal in designation, example, First and Last. LORD, all caps, and Lord. Father and Son. Beginning and End, Alpha and Omega. Root and Offspring. see all these are Ordinal Desigination in TIME, PLACE, ORDER and RANK.

I know this was a bit much to start off but copy this and put it aside for future references. if you decide to further this discussion.

be blessed in the Lord.

101G.
 
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If Jesus is really the Messiah, and if he is so important, why doesn’t the Torah speak of him?​


I beg your pardon??

“And [Jesus] said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.” (Luke 24:44, KJV)

:unsure:
 

If Jesus is really the Messiah, and if he is so important, why doesn’t the Torah speak of him?​


I beg your pardon??
It was the same thing Paul does when he poses questions “people” would ask that he is about to refute:

[Romans 9:]
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it! ...
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"
 
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