360watt
Active Member
I agree with this. But following commands isn't part of receiving eternal life
How do the unsaved suffer forever in hell without the Tree of Life?
- Thread starter charismaticlady
- Start date
charismaticlady
Active Member
JF, I just had this discussion with someone else on another Christian site. This is what I told him. You might find it interesting as you are a fellow searcher of truth. His name is Doug...
Yes, we do need to "reckon" ourselves dead to sin, because the world is full of false teachers. Doug, reckoning is telling ourselves the truth. Not a fairy tale. Proverbs 23:7 "as a man thinks in his heart, so is he." See the difference?
This is what I believe the apostles taught about the sin nature based on how God views sin, not how many denominations erroneously view sin:
Mankind's sin nature was inherited from Adam when he committed a "sin unto death" against a commandment of God. Eve only committed an unintentional "sin NOT unto death" and why they didn't know they were naked until after he committed the worst type of sin that Catholics call a mortal sin. They would call Eve's sin a venial sin. I'm not Catholic, but they were right on seeing how God views the two types of sin. See 1 John 5:16-17 about sins unto death and sins not unto death.
The Reformation started the false lumping of all sin together as "sin is sin." Many erroneous doctrines came out of this error. One was God forgives all of our "past, present and future" sins of whatever type, when 2 Peter 1:9 shows only our past sins were forgiven. Those were sins unto death called lawlessness in 1 John 3:4-5. 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. This is Jesus as the Author of our faith. Jesus took sins unto death out of our nature, making us free from that type of sin, leaving us with a clean human nature with freedom of will. Our freedom of will is why we must tell ourselves the truth and "keep" ourselves. 1 John 5:18 "We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him." Also see 1 John 3:3 "And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure."
This is why 1 John 3:9 says "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." This is not ALL sin, because the context from verse 4 is only the worst type of sin, sins unto death. These are the only type of sin in the "sin nature" Paul calls the "old man" that was crucified in Romans 6:5-7 and why a Christian does not have a sin nature any longer once we experience being born again of the Spirit. What is born again is our nature, which is our spirit and soul. We now have a clean nature, John 15:3 and have no desire to murder, steal, lie, commit adultery, dabble in sorcery, even once, let alone practice these abominations to God from Galatians 5:19-21. Doug, I wasn't born again for the first 30 years of going to church, but when I experienced being born again and received God's Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, I literally felt a heaviness leave my body and all desire to commit adultery (what I was a slave to) was completely gone, and all I desired was loving what God loved, and hating what God hated. That is from a clean nature that may partake of the divine nature of God! 2 Peter 1:2-4 "Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
Reckoning ourselves free from sin is not a lie when all unrighteousness has been cleansed as some like to erroneously teach that 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10 are Christians. No, the next chapter shows what those who walk in darkness but say they don't sin actually means. 1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. See they still have a sin nature with sins unto death in them. A Christian is free from lawlessness and on the path to eternal LIFE.
We need to go back to the first chapter of 1 John:7 to see that the lesser sin, sins not unto death, are what are automatically cleansed as we walk in the Spirit. " But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."
These are immature fruit of the Spirit that Jesus as the Finisher of our faith continues to mature in us one by one shown in 2 Peter 1:5-7 "5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love."
charismaticlady
Active Member
Yes, the old commandments are now part of our new nature so it isn't following commands; it is following your conscience, automatically loving what God loves and automatically hating what God hates. See the difference? Works is having to obey commands against our nature, not in line with our new nature. The ceremonial law about the Sabbath is now 24/7/365 resting in Jesus and instead of the 7th day, once a week, it is all the time called "Today."
In other words a born again Christian does not want to do any of these things in Galatians 5:19-21. Anyone claiming to be a Christian and does these things will have a rude awakening when Jesus says to them, "I never knew you."
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, ]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
God fixed his bible here in the last days. Otherwise none could do this-John 4:22-24
charismaticlady
Active Member
Sorry, JF, but you are understanding 1 John 1 with a "western" mindset. The apostles were EASTERN, an entirely different writing style than Greek paragraphs. Have you ever wondered why verses 8 and 10 are separated by verse 9, the verse that tells how to become a Christian? Verses 5 through 10 are what is called Semitic writing style of synonymous parallelism contrasts. Verse 5 says God is light. The next verse is a verse about darkness. Then verse 7 is if you walk in the light. That makes verse 8 that you are quoting a verse of darkness. And verse 9, of course, is how to come into the light. But the last verse again is darkness. Therefore, verses 6, 8 and 10 are darkness. The next verse is 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. Why say that to them if it is as impossible as you've been taught? Read further and you will get a clearer message of what 1 John 1:8 is saying, 1 John 2:4, "He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Read 1 John 1:9 carefully and ask yourself why agreeing with it makes you a liar?
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
You've learned what is called a doctrine of demons I call defeatism. Read chapter three. It also is written in contrasts, though the verse numbering makes it not as clear as 1 John 1. Jesus takes away our sin. That means from the source - our NATURE. Christians no longer have a "sin nature" Paul calls "the old man" that is crucified (dead).
I'm afraid you are going to have to rethink what you are reading, because the way you view 1 John 1:8 is contradictory to 1 John 3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." You've probably been taught that this verse should have the word "practice" in it. That is not the original. That is from the corrupted Alexandrian codices that even questioned if Jesus was God. We are forbidden to add words to God's inspired word to change it to a false belief you may believe. What you may not know too is that chapter three is only about lawlessness (vs. 4). They are sins unto death that we are forbidden to commit even once, let alone not practice. There is another type of sin though. A lesser type John calls "sins NOT unto death" in 1 John 5:16-17. They are immature fruit of the Spirit. That is the type of sin being continually cleansed in 1 John 1:7 while we are walking in the light. They are what some erroneously call the process of sanctification. It is a process that may take much longer than when we were first born again of the Spirit and Jesus took away lawless sin from our nature. Now we have a clean human nature, John 15:3. By the way, this process is about being conformed to the image of Christ and it is called "glorification" not merely being set apart, the meaning of sanctification that has already been completed (1 Cor. 6:11 "you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified.") That is for those who are actually born again of the Spirit. I wasn't for the first 30 years of going to church! It is an actual experience, not just imputed to us.
Last edited:
charismaticlady
Active Member
That's okay. Go back and read it. You might find it interesting and learn something you hadn't thought of. Then we can discuss not being under the law. The reason is powerful and not just cut and dried. #69
civic
Active Member
Romans 7:7–25 unpacks verse 5, and Romans 8:1–17 unpacks verse 6. In verses 7–25 we see how sin via the law brings death to those in the flesh, and in Romans 8:1–17 we see how the Spirit grants life to those who belong to Jesus Christ. Romans 7:5–6 forecasts what Paul is about to say in remarkably clear terms. The Holy Spirit is never mentioned in Romans 7:7–25. But Paul refers to the Spirit 15 times in Romans 8:1–17, suggesting that the person described in Romans 7:7–25 is one who doesn’t have the Spirit in his life. The essence of what it means to be a Christian is to be indwelt with the Spirit (Rom. 8:9). We see in both Romans 7:14 and 7:18 that the one described is of the “flesh,” one who is still in the old Adam, one who is unregenerate.
The total defeat described in Romans 7 contradicts how Paul describes Christian experience in Romans 6 and 8. Paul proclaims in Romans 6 that we’re no longer slaves to sin (6:6), that we’re free from the sin that enslaved us when we were unbelievers (Rom. 6:16–19).
Romans 7- Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.
4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
A number of objections surface against what I’ve said. Let’s look at two of them briefly. First, how does a reference to unbelievers fit with Romans 7:23 (“For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being”)? Doesn’t such delight and longing for God’s law show that a believer is in view? Not necessarily. Many pious Jews loved God’s law and yet didn’t know God. Paul himself testifies that the Jews have a “zeal for God,” though they lacked knowledge (Rom. 10:2). There can be zeal and delight in the law (witness the Pharisees) when one isn’t truly saved.
Second, Paul shifts from past-tense verbs in Romans 7:7–11 to present-tense verbs in verses 14–25. Doesn’t that prove Christians are in view? Not necessarily. Scholars recognize that present tense doesn’t necessarily designate present time. The temporal nature of an action must be discerned from context, since present-tense verbs, even in the indicative, may be used with reference to the past or even the future.
The tense of the verb doesn’t emphasize time in Romans 7:7–25. Rather, the use of the present tense here fits with the state or condition of the person. Paul is emphasizing one’s captivity, subjugation, and impotence under the law. His use of the present tense doesn’t denote past time but highlights in a vivid way the slavery of life under the law.
If I’m right in the way I interpret this passage, the difference between me and those who see this as Christian experience isn’t great. After all, we both agree that believers fall short in numerous ways and that we struggle daily with sin. The reason we differ is that I see Romans 7:13–25 as describing total defeat, and that isn’t our story as Christians since the Holy Spirit also empowers us to live in a new way. T.Schreiner
hope this helps !!!
atpollard
Active Member
Hard pass ... I would rather pour bleach in my eyes.
Galatians 3:1-14 [NASB]
You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed [as] crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Just as Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore, recognize that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." So then, those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
For all who are of works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written: "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THE THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM." Now, that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS ONE WILL LIVE BY FAITH." However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "THE PERSON WHO PERFORMS THEM WILL LIVE BY THEM." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written: "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"-- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
You are teaching here something that seems to have come out from Charismatic Chaos Theology, as a type of sinless perfection obtained by the 'second blessing", but none of that is confirmed to us in the Bible
And we do not use a certain mindset to read the bible, as in the Greek text it still stated the same to us, regardless if one has a "western/eastern" mindset
I can assure you that Satan inspired the NWT, not the Holy Spirit
paul described himself in Romans as having still issues with that sin nature, so he did not know what you are teaching here either it would seem
charismaticlady
Active Member
Why? Are you ashamed of what you believe? Do you believe we are under the law, or free to sin as much as we want because we are not under the righteous laws of God, but covered by the blood of Jesus?
Neither option, as we would hold still able to sin due to us still being in sinful flesh, but we can chose not to sin by submitting to the Holy Spirit, and we do sin, we have an advocate to ther Father, the Lord Jesus
charismaticlady
Active Member
I was speaking to @atpollard
Do you understand that the sinful flesh that Paul is speaking of is NOT our body, but our nature? Our body only responds to the commands given it by our nature, whether a sin nature of the unbeliever, or the clean nature that may partake of the divine nature of God? It is our nature that is born again of the Spirit, not our body. Our body is like a floppy puppet that only responds to the puppet masters, our spirit and soul: our nature, whether the sin nature of the unbeliever or the clean nature after being cleansed of all unrighteousness. This is what the Bible teaches, not the false doctrines of demons that want to cause us to live in defeat.
e v e
Active Member
our body is sin nature, a situation since after the fall. the kind of nature on this earth.
nature as in flesh, growing things, creatures.
it dies. everything here does.
Just as God warned adam.
In our flesh still remains the principle of sin, as Paul described Himself even after saved as fighting his lusts and desires, but that He gotr the victory when submitting Himself to the Holy Spirit, as per Romans 12:1-2
charismaticlady
Active Member
Hi, JF
Yes, he's talking about submitting yourself to Jesus to become born again of the Spirit. That is the start of the renewal of your mind, because your mind is your spirit, whereas your heart is your soul's conscience. Together the spirit and soul is our nature and what must be born again of the Spirit. Paul gave many warnings that just knowledge of Jesus is not enough if He does not dwell inside, Romans 8:9, and no longer living in or reviving your dead sin nature, the old man that's been crucified with Christ, but to tell yourself the truth (reckon). And he's not talking about himself. Paul tells us many times to imitate himself and how he lives in good conscience.
Jesus was manifest to TAKE AWAY our sin, and in Him is no sin. So we must abide in Him continually so that Jesus may complete His work in us as he matures all the fruit of the Spirit. The old sin nature was called "the flesh." It is a different kind of "flesh" than that of our body. We can control our body by our mind and conscience. Our body does not control our mind and conscience. Our body is the puppet that is controlled by the puppet masters, our mind and conscience, not the other way around.
Romans 7:5-6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Last edited:
We still have residing in this flesh though the principle of sin, old sin nature, that would want us to keep on disobeying God
charismaticlady
Active Member
If you really believe that then you believe Jesus didn't defeat Satan at all and that is where you are sooooooooooo wrong, at least, not for someone who is actually born again of the Spirit of Christ. Unfortunately, there are millions of church goers that have never experienced the life changing power of being born again and still experience what you just said. It is a constant struggle and Satan has convinced them it is perfectly normal, and not to worry about it, said the spider to the fly. Yikes!
1 John 3:8-9
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Sinless perfection is heresy
Similar threads
- Locked
