He that believes and is not water baptised is saved

[FreeInChrist]

I can agree with most of that. However, I do have some problems with a few points. In mentioning John's baptism, it said, "When we hear about John’s baptism, it primarily signified repentance and turning away from sin." That is not quite right.

It's alright Jim. There are so many views on the subject, we probably all got a piece of the whole reason that we cling to.

Mar 1:4 John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto forgiveness of sins.

Luk 3:3 And he came into all the region round about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance unto forgiveness of sins;

First, the Greek word for repentance is μετάνοια [metanoia] meaning compunction (for guilt, including reformation); by implication reversal (of [another’s] decision). That is being sorry for sins committed and a turning away for sinning. It says the it was a baptism of repentance meaning that is the reason for it and what has lead up to seeking to be baptized. The actual baptism was stated as being unto forgiveness of sins. Repentance was what the one to be baptized did, Forgiveness of sins is what God did. That is an integral feature of salvation then and now. It did not primarily signify repentance and turning away from sin. It primarily brought about forgiveness of sin by God. That was, at the time, a salvation act of God. It lacked the regeneration of the New Covenant to be instituted later at Pentecost.

So then how did that differ from the baptism that Peter preached on the day of Pentecost?

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Peter preached a baptism, in the name of Jesus Christ, of repentance for the forgiveness of sin and for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. But indwelling of the Holy Spirit is baptism of the Holy Spirit.

And additional comment. The article stated;

However, Acts 1:8 is a reference to the Holy Spirit falling upon them to produce the speaking in tongues (Acts 2:5). It is not about the baptism with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).

Then in the final thoughts the article stated;


I don't disagree with that, but it is rather weak. It is not just that "we ought to invite the Holy Spirit into our lives continually"; rather, it is that we ought to repent and be baptized in order for God to forgive our sins and to give us the Holy Spirit to dwell in us permanently, i.e., baptize us with the Holy Spirit, so long as we maintain our faith in God, allowing it to shape, guide and empower us for the mission ahead.

I disagree with this also. I have the Holy Spirit in me. He is getting greyer by the day because of me. But he does stop me often from making horrible mistakes and he stopped me a few years back from going back into something that I was away from and forgiven for.... (Trusting in God on that one)

I do not have to ask Him daily. I merely have to say good morning and goodnight for he is here and a great comfort when needed.

 

[Jim]

I do not have to ask Him daily. I merely have to say good morning and goodnight for he is here and a great comfort when needed.

AMEN, AMEN and AMEN ! ! !

 

[dwight92070]

Oh my oh my. There are none who must ignore so much scripture as those who refuse to accept the association of water baptism and God's gift of salvation.

There are some verses that associate water baptism with salvation. However there are NO verses that require water baptism in order to be saved.

 

[360watt]

It's important to distinguish getting 'saved' or 'delivered' from trouble/issues and getting saved and delivered from hell thru eternal life being given by Jesus.

For example, Noah and his family 'saved' by water. This is getting rescued from trouble, not eternal salvation being given. It's earthly, temporal deliverance, not eternal salvation itself.

So.. there are baptism verses with being saved. I would contend that when you see the context around these verses, you will see its this kind of temporal, earthly deliverance, rather than eternal salvation.

A prime example is acts 2:38.. where the baptism for salvation is either 'because you already have salvation', because of the context... or it is being saved in the sense of a fully committed life to Jesus.

Water baptism shows you want to fully commit to Jesus..following previously being eternally saved.

Eternal salvation vs daily service/deliverance is the issue. They aren't the same thing or directly tied to eachother.

 

[Jim]

There are some verses that associate water baptism with salvation. However there are NO verses that require water baptism in order to be saved.

What do you think it means to have sins forgiven and be given the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) if it doesn't mean to be saved?

Even the preaching of John the Baptist (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3) was water baptism for the forgiveness of sins, i.e., under the Old Covenant to be saved.

Mark 16:16 clearly establishes water baptism to be saved as does Matthew 28:19-20.

Under the New Covenant water baptism was for the forgiveness of sins AND the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:1-6; Rom 6:3-4; Gal 3:27; Col 2:12-13). That is being saved.

 

[FreeInChrist]

What do you think it means to have sins forgiven and be given the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) if it doesn't mean to be saved?

Even the preaching of John the Baptist (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3) was water baptism for the forgiveness of sins, i.e., under the Old Covenant to be saved.

Mark 16:16 clearly establishes water baptism to be saved as does Matthew 28:19-20.

Under the New Covenant water baptism was for the forgiveness of sins AND the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:1-6; Rom 6:3-4; Gal 3:27; Col 2:12-13). That is being saved.

I am not @dwight92070 but want to post this info.

Ai ~ Under the New Covenant, water baptism is associated with repentance and the forgiveness of sins, as well as receiving the Holy Spirit, but it is not considered necessary for salvation. Salvation is understood to come through faith in Jesus Christ, as emphasized in various scriptures that highlight grace rather than works.

Got Questions~Acts 2:38, “And Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation. For more information, please visit our webpage on "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? "https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Acts-2-38.html

Baptismal Justification? An analysis of Acts 2:38

“And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you…

medium.com

Peter himself teaches that what saves us is not the physical act of baptism, not the outward ritualistic act of washing with water — that is not what saves, but rather the inward spiritual disposition of the heart in repentance toward God (1 Peter 3:21). [6] The rest of the Scripture teaches that this faithful repentance is a gift worked in us through God (Philippians 2:13, 2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18, etc.…). Because water cleanses the dirt from the body, it is a fitting visible sign for the spiritual cleansing that God has effected for our souls in Christ. Repent and be baptized for (because of) the forgiveness of sins. [7

How does the preaching in Acts 2:38 end?

“So those who received his word (believed) were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.”
Just as in the later passage in Acts 10, the gift of the Holy Spirit was not caused by water baptism but rather preceded baptism. Baptism happened because of belief. Baptism does not work ex operate, nor is it required, according to Peter, to cause the forgiveness of sins or the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

We are not baptized to receive remission of sins, but rather because we have remission of sins. Our justification from sins, our having peace with God, takes place at the point of saving faith — not at the point of water baptism, which biblically occurs afterward. If a person has been justified and has sins eternally forgiven at the point of faith, then baptism is clearly not necessary to forgive sins or have spiritual life (faith).

As a closing note, saying that baptism is not necessary for justification is not to say that baptism is not important. We would not say that family is unimportant simply because I do not presently require them to maintain the necessities of life (eating, breathing, etc.…). Baptism is necessary precisely because it is a commanded ordinance for all who believe in Christ, but that is not to say that it is necessary to have peace with God.

Those adhering to baptismal justification have sadly grasped the shadow and missed the substance. A mistake the Jews made (Romans 9:30–33). In doing so, they fall to a weaker knowledge of both shadow and substance.

Is Water Baptism Necessary for Salvation in Christ?

To answer this, let's look at an article by Robert Gromacki, entitled Repent and Be Baptized.On the Day of Pentecost, Peter stood before a large crowd of Jews and declared: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the...

www.backtothebible.org

Is Water Baptism Necessary for Salvation in Christ?​

Doctrine of Salvation

Fifth, the doctrine of salvation, taught throughout all of the Scriptures and evidenced in all dispensations and ages, stresses that only repentant faith is necessary to be justified and to receive divine forgiveness. Abraham "believed in the Lord; and [God] counted it to him for righteousness" (Gen. 15:6). From one age to another, the means of getting saved has remained the same. That is why New Testament writers often refer to Old Testament characters as examples of faith. To teach that water baptism is essential to salvation in this Church Age is to say that God has changed the method to gain justification.

Dear readers, rejoice in the truth: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8).

 

[Jim]

I am not @dwight92070 but want to post this info.

Ai ~ Under the New Covenant, water baptism is associated with repentance and the forgiveness of sins, as well as receiving the Holy Spirit, but it is not considered necessary for salvation. Salvation is understood to come through faith in Jesus Christ, as emphasized in various scriptures that highlight grace rather than works.

Got Questions~Acts 2:38, “And Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation. For more information, please visit our webpage on "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? "https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Acts-2-38.html

Baptismal Justification? An analysis of Acts 2:38

“And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you…

medium.com

Is Water Baptism Necessary for Salvation in Christ?

To answer this, let's look at an article by Robert Gromacki, entitled Repent and Be Baptized.On the Day of Pentecost, Peter stood before a large crowd of Jews and declared: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the...

www.backtothebible.org

And in none of those web sites does it really address what Peter meant by what is presented in Acts 2:38. Our Brother, @Red Baker will insist that in Acts 2:38 "for the forgiveness of sins" doesn't mean unto the forgiveness of sins or in order to obtain the forgiveness of sins but rather because of having received the forgiveness of sins. Generally, most other than Calvinist types will disagree with @Red Baker's rendering of of Peter's statement there but at the same time so many such as you seem to simply reject what Peter has said there.

So my question stands. What do you think it means to have sins forgiven and be given the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) if it doesn't mean to be saved?

 

[Jim]

I am not @dwight92070 but want to post this info.

Baptismal Justification? An analysis of Acts 2:38

“And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you…

medium.com

That analysis, like so many others, makes the mistake of saying, "This verse is used frequently to teach baptismal regeneration...." That is simply false. Baptismal regeneration is the teaching that baptism is the means and cause whereby regeneration occurs. That is the teaching of those such as the Catholic Church. But that is not what I believe or teach.

And while the author of that article proceeds to argue against the concept of baptismal regeneration, he never really gets around to saying what Peter [actually God] means by what he said in Acts 2:38.

And it is interesting that the author would again repeat the mistake of our friend @Red Baker in reinventing the meaning of the Greek word eis. He does that not by addressing the Greek word eis but rather by addressing the English word "for". How silly is that? And even there he flubs it. He cites Matthew 21:41 saying:

We find ample use of the Greek ‘eis’ in this exact fashion in the New Testament. In Matthew 12:41, we read, ‘The men of Ninevah will rise up at the judgment of this generation..*for* they repented at the preaching of Jonah..’ Now it is obvious that Jesus was not saying that the people repented ‘in order to get’ preaching, but rather they repented ‘because of’ the preaching.

But the word for in "for they repented" in Matthew 12:41 is not from the Greek word eis but rather from the Greek word hoti. which carries the meaning of causatively because.

@FreeInChrist, I would not give much credence to anything that author has to say about God's word and its teaching.

I would in like manner point out similar error in the analysis presented by the second author, i.e., Janett in Back To The Bible.

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist @Jim @dwight92070

I am not @dwight92070 but want to post this info.

Neither am I, but, since my name was brought up, I feel compel to answer for myself, on this never ending debate on water baptism and its true biblical teaching, which will never be settled until Christ's return and then folks still still will attempt to reason with Christ in that day.

Matthew 7:22​

“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?”

There are some verses that associate water baptism with salvation. However there are NO verses that require water baptism in order to be saved.

I agree that there are no scriptures that teach one is saved from sin and condemnation by the act of being baptized, "not one". Yet, there are scriptures that do teach that through water baptism post Christ's death and resurrection, one is saved in a practical sense.

Mark 16:16​

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

One who believes and IS baptized shall be saved................ in what sense is Jesus referring to? Please consider one more.

Salvation from sin and condemnation is all of God's grace, and done by the power of the Spirit of God, man has no active part in this salvation, "it is not of works in any sense whatsoever", or, else, it ceases to be of grace. Per Romans 11:5,6.

Yet, there is a practical salvation that many enjoy, that some who are born again by the Spirit of God do not enjoy!

Example: NT believers post Christ's death and resurrection enjoy a salvation of "higher/ greater" knowledge that OT saints never enjoyed, not having a full understanding of Christ's death and resurrection, and what all it entailed, or secured for God's elect. Just think for a moment, concerning even the apostles limited knowledge of Christ's purpose of coming into the world and all that he secured for us that they had no clue until AFTER Christ death and resurrection and even then it was a slow process of learning these blessed truths for them, how much more so for others, some of which died before they were able to comprehend thee full details of Christ's death and resurrection!

Our water baptism into the faith and religion of Jesus Christ under the NT gives to us a salvation that many never experience when done properly and IF those being baptized were educated as to why they were baptised.

This is the true meaning of Mark 16:16a, and if any disagree then they have not yet experienced the salvation that our blessed Lord Jesus is speaking about in the first part of Mark 16;16.

I very seldom ever consider AL for understanding bible doctrines, for it is a system where google just gathered information and whichever system puts out the most infor, then that becomes to them the answer to whatever question one are seeking answers for, that can be very misleading. So, I suggest for Christians to seek God's word for their bible questions, not AL

 

[FreeInChrist]

@FreeInChrist @Jim @dwight92070

Neither am I, but, since my name was brought up, I feel compel to answer for myself, on this never ending debate on water baptism and its true biblical teaching, which will never be settled until Christ's return and then folks still still will attempt to reason with Christ in that day.

Matthew 7:22​

“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?”

I agree that there are no scriptures that teach one is saved from sin and condemnation by the act of being baptized, "not one". Yet, there are scriptures that do teach that through water baptism post Christ's death and resurrection, one is saved in a practical sense.

Mark 16:16​

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

One who believes and IS baptized shall be saved................ in what sense is Jesus referring to? Please consider one more.

Salvation from sin and condemnation is all of God's grace, and done by the power of the Spirit of God, man has no active part in this salvation, "it is not of works in any sense whatsoever", or, else, it ceases to be of grace. Per Romans 11:5,6.

Yet, there is a practical salvation that many enjoy, that some who are born again by the Spirit of God do not enjoy!

Example: NT believers post Christ's death and resurrection enjoy a salvation of "higher/ greater" knowledge that OT saints never enjoyed, not having a full understanding of Christ's death and resurrection, and what all it entailed, or secured for God's elect. Just think for a moment, concerning even the apostles limited knowledge of Christ's purpose of coming into the world and all that he secured for us that they had no clue until AFTER Christ death and resurrection and even then it was a slow process of learning these blessed truths for them, how much more so for others, some of which died before they were able to comprehend thee full details of Christ's death and resurrection!

Our water baptism into the faith and religion of Jesus Christ under the NT gives to us a salvation that many never experience when done properly and IF those being baptized were educated as to why they were baptised.

This is the true meaning of Mark 16:16a, and if any disagree then they have not yet experienced the salvation that our blessed Lord Jesus is speaking about in the first part of Mark 16;16.

I very seldom ever consider AL for understanding bible doctrines, for it is a system where google just gathered information and whichever system puts out the most infor, then that becomes to them the answer to whatever question one are seeking answers for, that can be very misleading. So, I suggest for Christians to seek God's word for their bible questions, not AL

I agree with Ai because you , based on how a question is asked you can get differing answers.

Ask is predestination true you get one thin. Ask if free will is true you get anotyher.

But for conciseness Ai is good as it gets to the nitty gritty in a couple of sentences such as Under the New Covenant, water baptism is associated with repentance and the forgiveness of sins, as well as receiving the Holy Spirit, but it is not considered necessary for salvation. Salvation is understood to come through faith in Jesus Christ, as emphasized in various scriptures that highlight grace rather than works.

I think this refelcts your thoughts in a nutshell????

But I also posted two other sources, with links.

I know you use other sources when you make replies to bolster your beliefs usually without links so I assume you have no trouble with my other two?

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist

But for conciseness Ai is good as it gets to the nitty gritty in a couple of sentences such as Under the New Covenant, water baptism is associated with repentance and the forgiveness of sins, as well as receiving the Holy Spirit, but it is not considered necessary for salvation. Salvation is understood to come through faith in Jesus Christ, as emphasized in various scriptures that highlight grace rather than works.

I think this refelcts your thoughts in a nutshell????

Ai is here to stay, and in some cases very good, not so much in religious teachings.

Actually above does not reflect my understanding. "but it is not considered necessary for salvation. Salvation is understood to come through faith in Jesus Christ,"

First of all and very important~Salvation from sin and condemnation is NOT through our faith, but through the obedience and righteousness of Jesus Christ alone, without man having an active part in this salvation. So, Ai is very misleading. Also, Ai is incapable of making the point that I made in my post above concerning a salvation, that we do have in water baptism, since my position is in a very small majority of folks not enough to get Ai's attention to make it a vital point of discussion! Ai only works and is made possible through INPUT by others, the more the better, the more makes it the one Ai uses to give to others! Ai is without any power to help without others feeding it the information.

 

[Red Baker]

I also understand (though so very little) that others have their own Ai just as Goggle has its own. I'm speaking of Google's Ai, not of others

Google DeepMind: This is Google's central AI research and development hub~Facebook has their own, etc. with each having their own copyrights.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I also understand (though so very little) that others have their own Ai just as Goggle has its own. I'm speaking of Google's Ai, not of others

Google DeepMind: This is Google's central AI research and development hub~Facebook has their own, etc. with each having their own copyrights.

Google I donot trust.

I was searching for information on the Steeler starting quarter back for 2025 and Ai said Mason Rudolph was the starter.

Of course that is wrong it is Aaron Rodgers... for 1 year only ... though he has indicated it will be 1 year if the Steelers go to the Super Bowl but might be 2 if they dont.

And it is comical the way if you ask for info on predestination Google Ai is all in with loads of inf, but again if you ask for info on Free Will... they support that also.

They do seem to be pro Trinity though...

I think I would rather trust Siri or Bixby for the truth... then this at this point.

Yet I have used it to quote from a few times

 

[Doug Brents]

Let me suggest that you "faith only" people are looking at works through a completely improper lens.

Consider the movie "Brewster's Millions". When Brewster's great-grandfather write his will, Brewster didn't even know the man existed or had any relation to him. He was unable to influence his insertion into the will in any way whatsoever. The choice of whom he was going to include in the will, what was to be bequeathed to that person, and any conditions placed upon that gift, was completely at the whim of the rich great-grandfather.
Again, consider the book and movie "The Ultimate Gift". In this case the young man knew of the rich man and his wealth, but he still had no influence on whom he was going to include in the will, what was to be bequeathed to that person, and any conditions placed upon that gift, was completely at the whim of the rich grandfather.

This is what it means in Scripture when it says that it is "not of works" in Eph 2:8-9. We had/have no influence on God offering Jesus as our redeeming sacrifice, nor do we have any influence on Him including every person who has ever, or will ever, live(d) as a potential recipient of His gift.

But this has absolutely no impact on the conditions specified in the will. In both of the cases above, the man who died placed conditions and requirements on the young men to whom he was leaving his estate for the reception of his inheritance. In each case, if the young man did not meet the requirements or did not fulfill the conditions laid out within the will, that young man would not receive the full inheritance.

Again, this is what is described in Scripture. The Lord gave us conditions upon which we will inherit what He has left for us (Repentance, Confession of Jesus as Lord, Baptism, continuing in faithful belief to the end). If we meet those conditions then we will receive our inheritance. But if we do not meet those conditions then we will not receive the inheritance.

 

[dwight92070]

What do you think it means to have sins forgiven and be given the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) if it doesn't mean to be saved?

Yes it does because they repented, which is synonymous with faith, which you conveniently ignored.

Even the preaching of John the Baptist (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3) was water baptism for the forgiveness of sins, i.e., under the Old Covenant to be

saved.

Once again you left out repentance, which is mentioned in both verses but you leave it out because it doesn't agree with your false teaching.

Mark 16:16 clearly establishes water baptism to be saved as does Matthew 28:19-20.

Yet again, you seem to be blind to the word "believed" in Mark and "disciples" in Matthew, both of which speak of repentance and believing.

Under the New Covenant water baptism was for the forgiveness of sins AND the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:1-6; Rom 6:3-4; Gal 3:27; Col 2:12-13). That is being saved.

You must be allergic to the words "believed" in Acts 19 and "believe" in Romans 6:8, and "through faith" in Galatians 3:26, and "through faith" in Col. 2:12.

It's too bad that you substitute "baptism" for all those words, so you can change the meaning of the Word of God.

 

[Jim]

Yes it does because they repented, which is synonymous with faith, which you conveniently ignored.

Not true at all. What dictionary are you reading from?

 

[dwight92070]

Not true at all. What dictionary are you reading from?

Whoa - I'm reading from the Bible. All through the Bible, if a person repents before God, he is acting in faith. If he has faith in God, he has repented of his sins.
I may have used the wrong word - synonymous. But what I was trying to say was that they both happen at the same time.
They are two sides of one coin. "Repentance from dead works and of faith toward God." Hebrews 6:1
If you have one, you also have the other. Together, they are salvation - the new birth.

 

[Jim]

Whoa - I'm reading from the Bible. All through the Bible, if a person repents before God, he is acting in faith. If he has faith in God, he has repented of his sins.
I may have used the wrong word - synonymous. But what I was trying to say was that they both happen at the same time.
They are two sides of one coin. "Repentance from dead works and of faith toward God." Hebrews 6:1
If you have one, you also have the other. Together, they are salvation - the new birth.

You have a really corrupt view of soteriology. One who has been saved strives to do the works of God. They are the fruits of the Spirit -

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

However, one can display such fruit and not be saved. One of my very good friends through the years, who is not with us any longer, was one of those who displayed so many of those fruits and yet was at best a deist who believed there was a God who created this universe but rejected any notion that God was active in any way with the creation. And while he exhibited more such fruit than most Christians that I have met or that I know, he rejected any the very basic concepts of the gospel in spite of all attempts to teach him and convert him.

Being sorry for things that one has done wrong does not bring salvation. Faith begets repentance; repentance does not beget faith. Repentance may lead one to faith, but that is not an absolute.

Just as an aside, one of the problems that faces Reformed Theology is just that very fact. Since election in the Calvinist theology is wholly and only of God having nothing whatsoever to do with the elect himself one can never be absolutely sure that he is one of the elect. In the early beginnings of Calvinism, people would try to keep a detailed record of their "good deeds", their fruits, hoping that such fruit would assure them that they were indeed one of the elect.

So no @dwight92070, repentance is not one and the same as salvation. Repentance is the act of the person; salvation is the act of God.

 

[Red Baker]

If you have one, you also have the other. Together, they are salvation - the new birth.

Together at best they are evidence of one already born of God's Spirit, both are the fruits of the new man , since in the flesh dwelleth "no good thing", such as faith, repentance, love, and many other fruits of God's Spirit.

Romans 7:18​

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”

Such precious scripture should be enough to shut the mouth of every mouth, but, it is not since proud man thinks he has in his flesh, the power to believe, repent, love God with first being born of God. Paul said: "For I know" ~and so does every man taught of God! Even with a man born of God, to will is ever present with us, but how to perform God's will without sinning, I find not! Yet many teach that man in the flesh can do certain works of the flesh in order to be born again, that's impossible, since God's law demands perfection BEFORE one can be declared justified in God's sight, and in our flesh, that's impossible, yet in Christ he secured that free justification for each and every child of grace! Blessed be God that this is the gospel of free grace, without work.

This is what it means in Scripture when it says that it is "not of works" in Eph 2:8-9. We had/have no influence on God offering Jesus as our redeeming sacrifice, nor do we have any influence on Him including every person who has ever, or will ever, live(d) as a potential recipient of His gift.

But this has absolutely no impact on the conditions specified in the will. In both of the cases above, the man who died placed conditions and requirements on the young men to whom he was leaving his estate for the reception of his inheritance. In each case, if the young man did not meet the requirements or did not fulfill the conditions laid out within the will, that young man would not receive the full inheritance.

Again, this is what is described in Scripture.

This is false! Not even close. If you want to discuss this with me ~ then I'm ready.

 

[Jim]

Together at best they are evidence of one already born of God's Spirit, both are the fruits of the new man , since in the flesh dwelleth "no good thing", such as faith, repentance, love, and many other fruits of God's Spirit.

Romans 7:18​

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”

Such precious scripture should be enough to shut the mouth of every mouth, but, it is not since proud man thinks he has in his flesh, the power to believe, repent, love God with first being born of God. Paul said: "For I know" ~and so does every man taught of God! Even with a man born of God, to will is ever present with us, but how to perform God's will without sinning, I find not! Yet many teach that man in the flesh can do certain works of the flesh in order to be born again, that's impossible, since God's law demands perfection BEFORE one can be declared justified in God's sight, and in our flesh, that's impossible, yet in Christ he secured that free justification for each and every child of grace! Blessed be God that this is the gospel of free grace, without work.

This is false! Not even close. If you want to discuss this with me ~ then I'm ready.

This should be interesting. Two different positions, neither of which is likely to be correct