He that believes and is not water baptised is saved

[TomL]

The gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit is not physically observable. So, what astonished the Jews who accompanied Peter?

It's time you give it up

We have a passage that speaks of the indweling of the Spirit using certain words

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

Men are given, receive the Spirit

The same words are used to speak of the gentiles experience

They received the Spirit

Acts 10:47 (LEB) — 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”


Scripture also states they were given the Spirit

Acts 15:7–9 (LEB) — 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

In the very verse you speak of where the indwelling happens we read

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The phrase the gift of the Holy Spirit is used to denote the indwelling.

The same phrase appears in the Gentiles experience.

Acts 10:45 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,

Three phrases used to denote the indwelling of the Spirit are also used to denote the Gentiles experience.

 

[Jim]

It's time you give it up

We have a passage that speaks of the baptism en the Holy Ghost using certain words

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

Men are given, receive the Spirit

The same words are used to speak of the gentiles experience

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It's time you give it up

In scripture we see a verse speaking of the indwelling of the Spirit.

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

It speaks of receiving the Spirit and the giving of the Spirit.

We read the same words being employed denoting the giving and receiving of the Spirit

They received the Spirit

Acts 10:47 (LEB) — 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”


Scripture also states they were given the Spirit

Acts 15:7–9 (LEB) — 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

In the very verse you speak of where the indwelling happens we read

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The phrase the gift of the Holy Spirit is used to denote the indwelling.

The same phrase appears in the Gentiles experience.

Acts 10:45 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,

Three phrases used to denote the indwelling of the Spirit are also used to denote the Gentiles experience.

Give up? Why would I give up when you are so wrong about so much?

You didn't answer my question.

Again -- The gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit is not physically observable. So, what astonished the Jews who accompanied Peter?

 

[TomL]

Read it thus

It's time you give it up

We have a passage that speaks of the indweling of the Spirit using certain words

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

Men are given, receive the Spirit

The same words are used to speak of the gentiles experience

They received the Spirit

Acts 10:47 (LEB) — 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”


Scripture also states they were given the Spirit

Acts 15:7–9 (LEB) — 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

In the very verse you speak of where the indwelling happens we read

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The phrase the gift of the Holy Spirit is used to denote the indwelling.

The same phrase appears in the Gentiles experience.

Acts 10:45 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,

Three phrases used to denote the indwelling of the Spirit are also used to denote the Gentiles experience.

 

[Jim]

Read it thus

It's time you give it up

We have a passage that speaks of the indweling of the Spirit using certain words

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

Men are given, receive the Spirit

The same words are used to speak of the gentiles experience

They received the Spirit

Acts 10:47 (LEB) — 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”


Scripture also states they were given the Spirit

Acts 15:7–9 (LEB) — 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

In the very verse you speak of where the indwelling happens we read

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The phrase the gift of the Holy Spirit is used to denote the indwelling.

The same phrase appears in the Gentiles experience.

Acts 10:45 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,

Three phrases used to denote the indwelling of the Spirit are also used to denote the Gentiles experience.

Give up? Why would I give up when you are so wrong about so much?

You didn't answer my question.

Again -- The gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit is not physically observable. So, what astonished the Jews who accompanied Peter?

 

[TomL]

Give up? Why would I give up when you are so wrong about so much?

You didn't answer my question.

Again -- The gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit is not physically observable. So, what astonished the Jews who accompanied Peter?

The fact is you have no answer as to how three phrases that are used to denote the indwelling of the spirit are used to denote the gentiles experience.

Further the impossibility to deny the clear salvatory message seen in the text

Acts 15:7–9 (LEB) — 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Finally, you have no evidence God could not have chosen a particular experience during the early indwelling of the Spirit experiences, especially when God is stated to have testified to his action of

Giving the Holy Spirit to those who heard and believed the gospel.

How you can deny a salvatory event is really rather astounding.

 

[Jim]

The fact is you have no answer as to how three phrases that are used to denote the indwelling of the spirit are used to denote the gentiles experience.

Further the impossibility to deny the clear salvatory message seen in the text

Acts 15:7–9 (LEB) — 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Finally, you have no evidence God could not have chosen a particular experience during the early indwelling of the Spirit experiences, especially when God is stated to have testified to his action of

Giving the Holy Spirit to those who heard and believed the gospel.

How you can deny a salvatory event is really rather astounding.

Your answer is some presumed hypothetical "particular experience during the early indwelling of the Spirit experiences"?

As they say in Texas -- All hat and no cows.

 

[TomL]

Your answer is some presumed hypothetical "particular experience during the early indwelling of the Spirit experiences"?

As they say in Texas -- All hat and no cows.

Total nonsense

You failed to address the use of the three phrases denoting the indwelling of the Spirit

You failed to address the fact of a clear salvatory event.

and you ignore the fact that scripture speaks of the giving of the Holy Spirit in relation to the indwelling of the Spirit

John 14:16–17 (LEB) — 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.

Will be in you is indwelling

 

[Jim]

Total nonsense

You failed to address the use of the three phrases denoting the indwelling of the Spirit

You failed to address the fact of a clear salvatory event.

and you ignore the fact that scripture speaks of the giving of the Holy Spirit in relation to the indwelling of the Spirit

John 14:16–17 (LEB) — 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.

Will be in you is indwelling

Yes, in John 14:17 the phrase, "will be in you", would indicate the future indwelling Holy Spirit. The phrase, "gift of the Holy Spirit", does not always indicate indwelling.

It seems clear to me that you lack a suitable understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit generally in the world and specifically with respect to individuals, saved or otherwise.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I didn't say anything about the donkey being given the spiritual gift of tongues; but the donkey certainly didn't talk by its own power. The donkey indeed worked a miracle by the power of the Holy Spirit. Was that not a spiritual gift?

Was the serpent in the garden talking a spiritual gift?

 

[TomL]

Yes, in John 14:17 the phrase, "will be in you", would indicate the future indwelling Holy Spirit. The phrase, "gift of the Holy Spirit", does not always indicate indwelling.

It seems clear to me that you lack a suitable understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit generally in the world and specifically with respect to individuals, saved or otherwise.

Once again you ignore all points

We have a passage that speaks of the indwelling of the Spirit using certain words

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

Men are given, receive the Spirit

The same words are used to speak of the gentiles experience

They received the Spirit

Acts 10:47 (LEB) — 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”


Scripture also states they were given the Spirit

Acts 15:7–9 (LEB) — 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

In the very verse you speak of where the indwelling happens we read

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The phrase the gift of the Holy Spirit is used to denote the indwelling.

The same phrase appears in the Gentiles experience.

Acts 10:45 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,

Three phrases used to denote the indwelling of the Spirit are also used to denote the Gentiles experience.

You failed to address the fact of a clear salvatory event.

Acts 15:7–9 (LEB) — 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
You further ignore the fact
John 14:16–17 (LEB) — 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.
John 7:37–39Now on the last day of the feast—the great day—Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me, and let him drink, the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

Of Christ's promise that the Holy Spirit will be given in the sense of indwelling to those who believe in him

The gentiles had believed and were given the Spirit as per the promise which involves indwelling of the Spirit

All you have driving your argument is your assumption concerning water baptism,

offering nothing at all, to refute the argument based on the scriptures you were given.

 

[TomL]

Yes, in John 14:17 the phrase, "will be in you", would indicate the future indwelling Holy Spirit. The phrase, "gift of the Holy Spirit", does not always indicate indwelling.

It seems clear to me that you lack a suitable understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit generally in the world and specifically with respect to individuals, saved or otherwise.

But when it is a response to hearing and believing the gospel it is.

And it is the phrase that appears in the passage you have claimed does indicate the gift of the Holy Spirit.

A couple of facts you ignore.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Once again you ignore all points

We have a passage that speaks of the indweling of the Spirit using certain words

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

Men are given, receive the Spirit

The same words are used to speak of the gentiles experience

They received the Spirit

Acts 10:47 (LEB) — 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”


Scripture also states they were given the Spirit

Acts 15:7–9 (LEB) — 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

In the very verse you speak of where the indwelling happens we read

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The phrase the gift of the Holy Spirit is used to denote the indwelling.

The same phrase appears in the Gentiles experience.

Acts 10:45 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,

Three phrases used to denote the indwelling of the Spirit are also used to denote the Gentiles experience.

You failed to address the fact of a clear salvatory event.

Acts 15:7–9 (LEB) — 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
You further ignore the fact
John 14:16–17 (LEB) — 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.
John 7:37–39Now on the last day of the feast—the great day—Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me, and let him drink, the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

Of Christ's promise that the Holy Spirit will be given in the sense of indwelling to those who believe in him

The gentiles had believed and were given the Spirit as per the promise which involves indwelling of the Spirit

All you have driving your argument is your assumption concerning water baptism,

offering nothing at all, refuting the argument based on the scriptures you were given.

 

[Jim]

Was the serpent in the garden talking a spiritual gift?

Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Good morning @FreeInChrist. Was the serpent in the garden literal or figurative? Did it actually speak out loud or was that much the same as when we are tempted by Satan, a voice that we hear in our minds? I think you know me well enough to know that I generally treat the entire Genesis account of creation with a good bit of metaphorical language. I tend to treat the serpent in the garden as Satan rather than a physical animal type.

 

[TomL]

Yep, to defend his water baptism doctrine, he must ignore much scripture.

 

[Jim]

But when it is a response to hearing and believing the gospel it is


And it is the phrase that appears in the passage you have claimed does indicate the gift of the Holy Spirit.

A couple of facts you ignore.

There is the gift of the Holy Spirit wherein the gift is from the Holy Spirit, rather than the Holy Spirit, Himself. That is observable and is given largely to indicate a happening that is authentically God attested and certified.

There is the gift of the Holy Spirit wherein the gift is the Holy Spirit. That is not observable. It does indeed indicate the indwelling Holy Spirit.

These two gifts of the Holy Spirit are independent. They are unrelated. Neither implies the other.

Since the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:45 is observed to have occurred, I think there can be no doubt that is not the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit and is rather the spiritual gift of the Holy Spirit of speaking in tongues.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Good morning @FreeInChrist. Was the serpent in the garden literal or figurative? Did it actually speak out loud or was that much the same as when we are tempted by Satan, a voice that we hear in our minds? I think you know me well enough to know that I generally treat the entire Genesis account of creation with a good bit of metaphorical language. I tend to treat the serpent in the garden as Satan rather than a physical animal type.

@Jim,

For myself I believe the account to be accurate... and yet I believe the serpent was Satan in disguise,

He did speak, Of that I have no doubt.

 

[Jim]

Yep, to defend his water baptism doctrine, he must ignore much scripture.

Oh my oh my. There are none who must ignore so much scripture as those who refuse to accept the association of water baptism and God's gift of salvation.

 

[Jim]

@Jim,

For myself I believe the account to be accurate... and yet I believe the serpent was Satan in disguise,

He did speak, Of that I have no doubt.

Metaphorical does not negate accuracy. I don't agree that the speaker was literally a snake or some other serpent-like creature, but I do not think any less of you if that is what you believe.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Metaphorical does not negate accuracy. I don't agree that the speaker was literally a snake or some other serpent-like creature, but I do not think any less of you if that is what you believe.

Well, do you not believe the woman ate the forbidden fruit?

 

[Jim]

Well, do you not believe the woman ate the forbidden fruit?

I believe she disobeyed God. It doesn't really matter what it was. However, I do not have a problem with the literal interpretation of eating the forbidden fruit.

The more interesting part is the explanation of why she disobeyed. It says "that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate". That describes the reason for so much of the sin that we all commit. It all seems to us as quite reasonable and rational to do it at the time.