He that believes and is not water baptised is saved
- Thread starter 360watt
- Start date
I don't ignore any of the scripture that you posted. I do ignore your faulty interpretation of so much scripture. You engage in a tactic of so many. You quote a scripture, give an interpretation and then ascribe your interpretation as the only true one. You must understand that once you provide more that the precise quote of a scripture, whatever more you provide is no longer scripture. My disagreeing with your interpretation is not ignoring scripture.
When you produce a passage of scripture, give an interpretation of it which I disagree with, and then ask for proof that you are wrong, what do you really expect, given that there is very seldom any passage that specifically, word for word, negates your interpretation? That is precisely why there are so many divergent views within all of Christendom.
The Calvinist declares the doctrine of Total Depravity is biblical truth. There is no passage of scripture that says "Total Depravity is false" so that one cannot actually prove it is wrong; but at the same time, there is no passage of scripture that says "Total Depravity is true" so that one cannot actually prove it is true. It all comes down to interpretation.
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Evidence please. All you are doing is making claims ignoring the phrasing used and the fact the passage was of a salvatory nature and that there is a particular application of the Spirit in a salvatory happenstance.
And you finish with an assumption in claiming that God cannot witness as to whom he sent the Spirit to indwell.
And as well ignoring what was obvious to the Jews - the Gentiles had been given repentance unto life. And Paul's acknowledging of the Baptism en the Holy Spirit and that being the same baptism of the Spirit the disciples first received
The facts remain true
You cannot rebut the fact that three phrases which are used to indicate the indwelling of the Spirit were used to speak of the Gentiles experience. That one was, in fact, used in a verse you have claimed was speaking of it.
You cannot rebut the fact the passage has a salvatory nature. And that the Jews recognized this
You cannot rebut the fact that in a salvatory context receiving the Spirit is speaking of the indwelling of the Spirit.
You cannot rebut the fact the Gentiles were baptized en the Spirit according to Paul
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Good point.
But I look at it as when she heard another voice she was over the moon that there was something other to talk to other then Adam because nowhere have we ready God made daily appearances.
SWo if she heard a near daily warning from Adam that she would die if she ate that fruit then she heard that serpent say she would not surly die, and possibly even take a bite himself to prove it... Well... curiosity took over and then
But that is just me. I tend to take things literal in the bible unless we know it is a parable. It just, to me, all fits together like a
puzzle.
Of course I can. I can rebut your interpretation of it just as well as you can affirm it.
And I have never said the Gentiles were not being baptized in the Spirit. I have only disagreed with your interpretation of what that is and when it happens.
I tend to agree that we should take literally what the bible says unless we decide it is metaphoric. But that is nearly always the real debate in such instances. It is never what the bible says, it is always what we, personally, think it means.
Baptism in the Holy Spirt IS the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
But that is an interpretation not a biblical statement or quotation.
Yes, that is an interpretation. Am I now affirming that? I haven't denied that in the last 65+ years.
So then when Paul responded to the Gentiles experience with the Holy Spirit and stated
Acts 11:14–18 (LEB) — 14 who will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?” 18 And when they heard these things, they became silent and praised God, saying, “Then God has granted the repentance leading to life to the Gentiles also!”
we have an indwelling of the Spirit
So we have the first disciples promised the baptism en the Spirit
Acts 1:5 (NASB95) — 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
And the gentiles receiving the same as Peter and those first disciples
Acts 10:46–47 (NASB95) — 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”
Acts 11:15–17 (NASB95) — 15 “And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 “Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”
Thus the gentiles had been baptized en the Spirit indwelt by him
No you cannot as
Acts 1:5 (LEB) — 5 For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
The first disciples were promised to be baptized en the Spirit
The gentiles received the same
Acts 10:46–47 (LEB) — 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”
Acts 11:15–17 (LEB) — 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?”
And the baptism en the Spirit is salvatory, placing those baptized in the body of Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:13 (LEB) — 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free persons, and all were made to drink one Spirit.
You cannot rebut these scriptures, and you have no scriptures to contradict the obvious teaching of these scriptures.
No, that is not quite right. You are interpreting verse 16 as an explanation of what occurred in verse 15. That is not the case. Having seen and/or heard what happened to the Gentiles, namely, being given the ability of the speaking in tongues, Peter remembered what Jesus has said about baptism with the Holy Spirit. The gift in verse 17 is the same gift given to Peter and others at Pentecost described in Acts 2:4 which was speaking in tongues. Peter in recognizing the significance of the gift of speaking in tongues came to the understanding that God intended the gospel was to be for the Gentiles as well as the Jews. Therefore, he could not hinder God. This is essentially a repeat of Acts 10:47. The result was that he commanded that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (for the forgiveness of their sins and to receive the gift, the indwelling, the baptism with Holy Spirit just as had been done with the Jews in Acts 2:38.
The statement in 11:18 that "God has granted the repentance leading to life to the Gentiles also" is not a statement that Cornelius and the others with him had been saved, but rather that God had opened the door of the kingdom of God to the Gentile world. It was a statement that salvation has been made available to the Gentiles as well as the Jews.
But that is not what was described in Acts 2:4. Acts 2:4 was not baptism with the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38 presents baptism with the Holy Spirit. The giving of the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit in water baptism is the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Again, that describes the receiving of the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues, not to be saved. That is the same as they received in Acts 2:4.
There is one baptism, water baptism, with two results, namely, the forgiveness of sins and the receiving of the gift, the indwellling, the baptism, with the Holy Spirit.
The indwelling Holy Spirit received when one is [water] baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ is baptism with the Holy Spirit. The occasion of water baptism is the time when God saves. The result of that saving is the forgiveness of sin and baptism with the Holy Spirit. That is justification and regeneration.
First you are ignoring the point
Acts 1:5 (LEB) — 5 For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
There would be a baptism en the Holy Spirit for the first disciples (apostles included)
Second the gentiles in their reception of the Spirit are stated to have just received the same as the first disciples
Acts 10:46–47 (LEB) — 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”
Acts 11:15–17 (LEB) — 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?”
Seeing as the Gentiles had received what the first disciples would receive, i.e., the baptism en the Holy Spirit
The gentiles must have received the baptism en the Holy Spirit
This fact by itself totally refutes your theology .
You offer an assumption of all that was involved
We do, however, know the Gentiles received more than tongues, and their experience involved salvation.
Acts 11:12–18 (LEB) — 12 And the Spirit told me to accompany them, not hesitating at all. So these six brothers also went with me, and we entered into the man’s house. 13 And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and summon Simon, who is also called Peter, 14 who will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?” 18 And when they heard these things, they became silent and praised God, saying, “Then God has granted the repentance leading to life to the Gentiles also!”
All you are doing is offering the assumptions of your theology while ignoring the actual text of scripture
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