dwight92070
Active Member
Whenever you hear "rightly divided word of truth" and "gospel of grace" used repeatedly, you know that's code for: What you are about to hear is the false teaching of John Calvin.
He that believes and is not water baptised is saved
- Thread starter 360watt
- Start date
No one is saved by words spoken to them by someone else. Those who hear the words about God, about Christ, about the gospel and believe in them and obey the gospel, are then saved by God.
Why would you ask that? I didn't say that at all. If you think I did, then I am beginning to see why you are wrong about so much.
Not true. One can believe the gospel without obeying the gospel. Believing and obeying are not the same.
Your words
"No one is saved by words spoken to them by someone else"
I had posted from scripture
Acts 11:13–18 (LEB) — 13 And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and summon Simon, who is also called Peter, 14 who will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’
Cornelius would be saved believing the message Paul would preach
Even the Jews so concluded based on what had happened.
Acts 11:15–18 (LEB) — 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?” 18 And when they heard these things, they became silent and praised God, saying, “Then God has granted the repentance leading to life to the Gentiles also!”
Further
The baptism of the Holy Spirit
1 Cor 12:13For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free persons, and all were made to drink one Spirit.
Places one in the body of Christ
The body consists only of the saved.
PS You have not shown me wrong about anything.
The gospel is about Christ, and believing in Christ is obeying it.
Truly believing in the gospel causes one to follow it.
Cornelius would be saved through the preaching of Paul.
He was, in fact, shown to be saved by the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
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The baptism of the Holy Spirit is what happened to those present at Pentecost who obeyed Peter's response in Acts 2:38. That is, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is one and the same as receiving the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit.
Sorry to hear you are ignoring the texts
Acts 11:15–17 (LEB) — 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?”
Acts 15:7–9 (LEB) — 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
Acts 10:47 (LEB) — 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”
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In Acts 11:57 Peter's reference to the Holy Spirit falling on the Gentiles just as us at the beginning is to what is recorded in Acts 2:4. That gift was the speaking in tongues which is the same as recorded in Acts 10:44. Nothing in Acts 11:15-17; 15:7-9; 10:47 says that gift was baptism with the Holy Spirit as promised in Acts 1:5 or 11:16. Baptism with the Holy Spirit is one and the same as the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit received by the repentant believer when he is [water] baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Holy Spirit "falling on" was not a salvation experience and is not baptism with the Holy Spirit. Baptism with the Holy Spirit is indeed a salvation experience. I can provide you with and extensive biblical analysis establishing that but I seriously doubt that you would accept it or would even be interested such an analysis. But the long and the short of it is is that baptism with the Holy Spirit and baptism in water are two aspects of a single event in a single moment when the one being baptized is saved and has nothing to do whatsoever with any ability to work signs, wonders and miracles.
There is no Acts 11:57
From the various verses dealing with the Gentiles and the Holy Spirit
We can determine they were given the Spirit, they had received the Spirit and they were baptized in the spirit
Acts 11:15–17 (LEB) — 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?”
Acts 15:7–9 (LEB) — 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
Acts 10:47 (LEB) — 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”
There you go again ignoring scripture
Acts 11:15–17 (LEB) — 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?”
The Spirit's falling on the Gentiles reminded Paul of Christ's promise to Baptize en the Spirit
from the other passages posted we see they were given and had received the Spirit
All you do contrarywise is simply ignore the facts
Sorry again you ignore scripture
Acts 11:12–14 (LEB) — 12 And the Spirit told me to accompany them, not hesitating at all. So these six brothers also went with me, and we entered into the man’s house. 13 And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and summon Simon, who is also called Peter, 14 who will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’
Acts 11:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Are you going to claim
Believing in Christ is not a salvatory issue?
That repentance unto life is not a salvatory issue?
That baptism en the Holy Ghost is not a salvatory issue?
No @TomL, I am ignoring your incorrect interpretation of Scripture.
Not at all. Believing in Christ, repentance unto life and baptism with the Holy Spirit are all salvatory issues. I claim that the Holy Spirit "falling" on someone as in Acts 2:4, 10:44; 11:15 is not a salvatory issue. The Holy Spirit's giving one the power to work miracles is not a salvatory issue. Along with that I claim that the Holy Spirit's giving one the power to work miracles is not baptism with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit's giving one the power to work miracles was selective and limited. The baptism with the Holy Spirit is given universally to all who have been saved.
Sorry you fail to show any such thing and do not deal with what has been posted other than by quoting your assumption Not dealing with was stated
Viz
There is no Acts 11:57
From the various verses dealing with the Gentiles and the Holy Spirit
We can determine they were given the Spirit, they had received the Spirit and they were baptized in the spirit
Acts 11:15–17 (LEB) — 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?”
Acts 15:7–9 (LEB) — 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
Acts 10:47 (LEB) — 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”
There you go again ignoring scripture
Acts 11:15–17 (LEB) — 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?”
The Spirit's falling on the Gentiles reminded Paul of Christ's promise to Baptize en the Spirit
from the other passages posted we see they were given and had received the Spirit
All you do contrarywise is simply ignore the facts
Sorry again you ignore scripture
Acts 11:12–14 (LEB) — 12 And the Spirit told me to accompany them, not hesitating at all. So these six brothers also went with me, and we entered into the man’s house. 13 And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and summon Simon, who is also called Peter, 14 who will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’
Acts 11:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Are you going to claim
Believing in Christ is not a salvatory issue?
That repentance unto life is not a salvatory issue?
That baptism en the Holy Ghost the gentiles experienced as per Paul is not a salvatory issue?
Well all those things are reported as being the gentiles experience.
Acts 11:12–14 (LEB) — 12 And the Spirit told me to accompany them, not hesitating at all. So these six brothers also went with me, and we entered into the man’s house. 13 And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and summon Simon, who is also called Peter, 14 who will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’
Acts 11:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Acts 15:7–9 (KJV 1900) — 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Um you appear to be ignoring some facts again
The gentiles were given the Spirit, not just a gift from the Spirit.
Acts 15:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Had received the Spirit, not just a gift from the Spirit.
Acts 10:47 (LEB) — 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”
Were baptized by the Spirit.
Acts 11:15–17 (KJV 1900) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Acts 10:47 refers back to Acts 2:4. That speaks of the Holy Spirit giving the gift of speaking in tongues, which is not a salvation event. It is not the indwelling Holy Spirit which is a salvation event.
The same goes for Acts 11:15.
That is the only gift that they could observe. Acts 11:16 then speaks of remembering the promise of being baptized with the Holy Spirit. That is not what was observed but was remembered. Receiving the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit is not observable. Thus, Peter in seeing that they received the ability to speak in tongues did not stand in God's way and baptized them in water at which time their sins were forgiven and they received, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit; i.e., the received the baptism of/with/by.in the Holy Spirit.
Sorry the text states
Acts 10:47 (LEB) — 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”
They received the Spirit, not only speaking in tongues.
Scripture also states they were given the Spirit
Acts 15:7–9 (LEB) — 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
And it was evidence of their faith
Faith is a necessary condition to receive, to be given, to be baptized by the Spirit
To be indwelt by the Spirit is addressed by the phrases “receive the Spirit” and “be given the Spirit”
John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
The text is not just indicating that they were given the ability to speak in tongues only.
Further, it was the Spirit falling upon the Gentiles which caused Paul to remember
Acts 11:16 (LEB) — 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
The baptism which is by the Spirit
1 Corinthians 12:13 (LEB) — 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free persons, and all were made to drink one Spirit.
Places men into the body of Christ
BTW in addition to
compare
Acts 10:45 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,
Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit is not physically observable. So, what astonished the Jews who accompanied Peter?
