He that believes and is not water baptised is saved

[dwight92070]

This is what happens to someone who is indoctrinated with false teaching. They are obsessed with their pet false doctrine and turn on anyone who disagrees with them, calling them liars and attacking their character, when it is their own character that has been corrupted and their own conscience has been seared. They are righteous, it is everyone else who is evil. They become very angry and hateful and will never be teachable, unless they repent of their out-of-control hatred.

 

[Jim]

This is what happens to someone who is indoctrinated with false teaching. They are obsessed with their pet false doctrine and turn on anyone who disagrees with them, calling them liars and attacking their character, when it is their own character that has been corrupted and their own conscience has been seared. They are righteous, it is everyone else who is evil. They become very angry and hateful and will never be teachable, unless they repent of their out-of-control hatred.

That was the response to the lying by @Eternally-Grateful about what I said and what I believe. He lied. If you or he thinks he did not then prove it.

 

[dwight92070]

When did you first receive your spirit? I argue that you received your spirit at or before your physical birth. In other words your were born both physically and spiritually the first time. When you sinned, you became dead spiritually in your trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1) and you needed to be born again spiritually. And that is what Jesus was talking about.

 

[dwight92070]

The whole point is that being born again has nothing whatsoever to do with physical birth. Even so, Jesus was saying there that being born again is being born of water and Spirit. Make that whatever you wish, but there is no rational way to tie the mention of water to physical birth. It is the spirit that is born again of water and Spirit.

Jim said: "The whole point is that being born again has nothing whatsoever to do with physical birth."

Then why did Peter compare it to physical birth? He proves you wrong in 1 Peter 1:23 and 1 Peter 2:2

"for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God ... like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation."

Jim said: "but there is no rational way to tie the mention of water to physical birth".

You are so naive. Water has everything to do with physical birth. As I said before, the amniotic fluid is 98% water. Have you never heard it said of a pregnant woman, "Her water broke."? They never say, "Her amniotic fluid broke." In fact, many times the doctor who is "delivering the baby" breaks the water, so that the childbirth process can begin.

Without the amniotic fluid in the womb, the baby would face severe risks and may not even survive.

1. Protection: It acts as a shock absorber during physical impacts.
2. Development: It allows for fetal movement, which is vital for musculoskeletal development.
3. Temperature Regulation: It helps maintain a consistent temperature environment for the fetus.
4. Lung Development: The fetus inhales and exhales amniotic fluid, aiding lung maturation.

Every person alive has been born of water. The Greek word for "born" is "gennao" - to bring forth. We were all brought forth out of water, or as Jesus put it "of water".

 

[dwight92070]

That was the response to the lying by @Eternally-Grateful about what I said and what I believe. He lied. If you or he thinks he did not then prove it.

You yourself lied when you said in 1446:
"There is no such reference in all of literature to physical birth as born of water."

Obviously you made little to no effort to actually look that up, like I did - and I proved you wrong. And you have not even acknowledged that you were wrong, but instead chose to ignore the proof. That is disgusting.

You lied again in 1446 when you said:
"That is a construct of people like you who refuse to accept the concept of water baptism in soteriology." Here you accuse those of us who refuse to agree with you of actually making up or constructing false information, because we don't believe baptism is required to be saved. Shame on you. I guess that makes you a very ugly individual, which is exactly what you accused Eternally -Grateful of being.

That's called hypocrisy.

 

[civic]

Remember, as a reminder, lets attack the argument not the person.

 

[dwight92070]

Mar 1:4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luk 3:3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I noticed that you conveniently avoided highlighting (in red) "repentance", "repentance", and "repent" in each of the three verses. Of course you would do that because you wouldn't want people to think that repentance leads to forgiveness of sins - which it does - NOT baptism.

 

[Jim]

You yourself lied when you said in 1446:
"There is no such reference in all of literature to physical birth as born of water."

Obviously you made little to no effort to actually look that up, like I did - and I proved you wrong. And you have not even acknowledged that you were wrong, but instead chose to ignore the proof. That is disgusting.

You didn't give a single example of the phrase "born of water" being used as a euphemism for physical birth.

 

[Jim]

I noticed that you conveniently avoided highlighting (in red) "repentance", "repentance", and "repent" in each of the three verses. Of course you would do that because you wouldn't want people to think that repentance leads to forgiveness of sins - which it does - NOT baptism.

That is not true. Peter told the believers to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins. His statement clearly presents both repentance and baptism as needed for the forgiveness of their sins. That was the same as John the Baptist even before the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. After Jesus' sacrifice and the institution of the New Covenant, not only did it give them the forgiveness of their sins, but it also gave them the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit.

 

[dwight92070]

You are splitting hairs, which means "making small and unnecessary distinctions". You are being legalistic, which means "adhering excessively to law or formula". "Born of water" means being "brought forth"(gennao) out of water, which means that someone who is in water, like a newly created baby, has been brought forth out of the water of the womb and into a new life.

Every example that I gave supports the conclusion that Grok AI came to: "Water's universal association with life, the womb, and amniotic fluid makes it a natural symbol across cultures."

The fact that they didn't use the exact phrase "born of water" is irrelevant since every example spoke of life being brought forth out of the "womb" or "amniotic fluid" of water. Being "born of water" is exactly what is happening in each example.

Your use of the word "euphemism" is incorrect. It means "the substitution of an agreeable or inoffensive expression for one that may offend or suggest something unpleasant."

The correct word is "metaphor". It means "a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them." In this case "born of water" is used as a metaphor for "physical childbirth".

 

[dwight92070]

I noticed once again that you conveniently avoided and did not acknowledge the following scriptural proof that Peter gives us that being born again has everything to do with physical childbirth.

Jim said: "The whole point is that being born again has nothing whatsoever to do with physical birth."

Then why did Peter compare it to physical birth? He proves you wrong in 1 Peter 1:23 and 1 Peter 2:2

"for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God ... like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation."

 

[dwight92070]

That is not true. Peter told the believers to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins. His statement clearly presents both repentance and baptism as needed for the forgiveness of their sins. That was the same as John the Baptist even before the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. After Jesus' sacrifice and the institution of the New Covenant, not only did it give them the forgiveness of their sins, but it also gave them the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit.

Jim said:
"His statement clearly presents both repentance and baptism as needed for the forgiveness of their sins."

If both repentance AND baptism were required for forgiven of sins, then why did Peter leave out baptism in Acts 3:19 in his second sermon? In fact, he clearly states there which of the two is required to receive forgiveness of sins: "Repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away."

Here is an analogy:

If two people wish to be married (in God's eyes), and to be "one flesh", they must publicly exchanges vows, making a covenant with each other. But what if they don't consummate that marriage, which by definition means "to make marital union complete by sexual intercourse"?

Are they still married? Yes they are. Take Joseph and Mary for example. Joseph waited to consummate their marriage until after Jesus was born. Were they still married during that time? Yes they were.

But what if a married couple never had sexual intercourse? They would still be married but they would be disobedient to God who commands through Paul: "The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband."
1 Corinthians 7:3

We also have God's command to Adam and Eve, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it: and rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."


Now look at salvation. If one wishes to be born again, he must enter into the new covenant with God through Jesus. God has already promised that if anyone repents and believes in the Lord Jesus, he will be saved - born again, and have eternal life. But for our part, we must repent and believe in Jesus and commit to follow Him until death.

But Jesus commands new believers to be baptized in water. If they don't get baptized, maybe because of lack of teaching, are they still saved? Yes, but Jesus commands them to be baptized. If they willfully refuse to be baptized, even after knowing that Jesus commands it, then that will greatly hinder their growth, and that may eventually lead to their falling away from God altogether. If they obey Jesus and get baptized, then they can go on to be fruitful and multiply and honor and glorify God.

Moses was a prophet of God, but he had overlooked circumcising one of his sons - and almost lost his life because of it. Had he never circumcised his son, or if his wife did not do it, Moses may have never brought Israel out of Egypt.

Baptism is commanded by Jesus for every one who has been born again. We should not put it off.

 

[Jim]

Baptism is commanded by Jesus for every one who has been born again. We should not put it off.

Where might I find that command?

 

[Jim]

You are splitting hairs, which means "making small and unnecessary distinctions".

And you are making stuff up to suit your own views.

 

[dwight92070]

Where might I find that command?

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations (that is, first bring them to being born again), baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit ..."(then after they are saved, baptize them) Matthew 28:19

Even Acts 2:38 and 3:19 tell us that Peter told the people to repent first for the foregiveness of their sins and then be baptized.
Acts 2:41 says "So then, those who had received his word (that is,first they were saved) were baptized (then they were baptized).
Acts 9:37-38 First the Ethiopian eunuch believed, then after that he was baptized by Philip.
Acts 16:14-15 First Lydia opened her heart to respond to the gospel -she was born again. Then she was baptized
Acts 16:31-33 First the jailer believed, then he was baptized.
Acts 8:12 First they believed the gospel, then after that they were baptized.
John 4: 1 First Jesus and His disciples made new disciples -believers. Then, after that they baptized them.
Acts 10:45-48 First Cornelius and his family believed. Then they were baptized.

 

[dwight92070]

What part of #1611 did I make up?
Why are you still not acknowledging the truth of what Peter said in 1 Peter 1:23 and 1 Peter 2:2?

 

[Jim]

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations (that is, first bring them to being born again), baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit ..."(then after they are saved, baptize them) Matthew 28:19

Even Acts 2:38 and 3:19 tell us that Peter told the people to repent first for the foregiveness of their sins and then be baptized.
Acts 2:41 says "So then, those who had received his word (that is,first they were saved) were baptized (then they were baptized).
Acts 9:37-38 First the Ethiopian eunuch believed, then after that he was baptized by Philip.
Acts 16:14-15 First Lydia opened her heart to respond to the gospel -she was born again. Then she was baptized
Acts 16:31-33 First the jailer believed, then he was baptized.
Acts 8:12 First they believed the gospel, then after that they were baptized.
John 4: 1 First Jesus and His disciples made new disciples -believers. Then, after that they baptized them.
Acts 10:45-48 First Cornelius and his family believed. Then they were baptized.

You have assumed that salvation is obtained at the instant when one believed. None of those verses says that. Believing, having faith in God, is the first and foremost condition that is required for salvation. It is not the only condition.

But even the very first verse you quoted, i.e., Matthew 28:19, rebuts that view. As I have noted here and elsewhere many times, the interpretation that you have presented there is simply not right. In that verse. there is only one imperative verb, only one command. That verb is μαθητευσατε. meaning "to disciple, to teach, to instruct". The verb form, " βαπτιζοντες [baptizing]", in verse 19 is a adverbial participle modifying the verb μαθητευσατε. It describes the process, the procedure, to be used to disciple, to make disciples. The grammatical construction in both English and Greek make baptizing the means for making disciples of all the nations, i.e., the people of those nations. You should probably go back and review the English you should have learned in grade school.

 

[civic]

In John 3:5, Jesus said born of water and the Spirit. Jesus did not say born of baptism and the Spirit so Jesus was not saying unless one is water baptized; he cannot enter the kingdom of God. In John 3:18, Jesus said - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (1 Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

Amen

 

[Jim]

deleted

 

[Jim]

I know this is not addressed to me but I have a comment.

Of course we receive our spirits with our souls when we have a body to contain them.... Tripartite man in fact. But if you are meaning we receive the Holy Spirit then

I didn't say that. What I profess is that the spirit you receive from God when you are born [or even before that] is alive and well. You, your spirit, is not dead in trespasses and sins until such time that you commit a sin; that is, you knowingly and willingly disobey God in any way whatsoever. It is at that time that you become a sinner and need to be reborn. That is, you, your spirit, had become dead and you needed to be made alive again.

That makes the perfect case for a baby baptism.... View attachment 2370 View attachment 2371

Water baptism immediately following the Holy Spirit baptism View attachment 2372

Thanks Jim, I really needed that.

Naw... it was not.

BTW.... Pleanty of people have sinned after their immersion baptisms. Pleant of people have also sinned after they received the Holy Spirit.... When it happens though.... you WILL know about it.

I don't think you fully understand what it means to have your sins forgiven. That is not something that God does after each occurrence of you committing a sin. To have your sins forgiven is a change in your standing before God. That standing before God is called justification; you have been counted, declared, righteous. It is a state of being, not a condition that you exit each time you commit a sin and then reenter when God forgives the sin.

When you hear the word about Christ, believe in God, in Jesus Christ, in the gospel, confess Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and are [water] baptized, God forgives you. You have been forgiven. You have been justified. You have been declared righteous. You standing before God has been changed. Given all of that, it is God that forgives you, not hearing, not believing, not confessing, not being baptized. It is God, and only God, who saves you. All that leads up to God's saving you are conditions which God has placed upon you as a sinner to be granted His grace of being saved.