Gospel of Christ: Is It Law Or Did It End Law?

[mikesw]

We are under the New Covenant, which is made with the same God with the same character traits and therefore the same instructions for how to be a doer of His character traits. In Galatians 3:16-19, there is a principle that new covenants do not nullify the promises of covenants that have already been ratified, so God's covenants are cumulatively valid

The interpretation just given is totally backwards from what Paul wrote. The point was that Christians enjoy the promises given to Abraham and Christ and involve the blessings through Christ. The point of vv17-18 are that the Mosaic law could not change what we get by enjoyment of the Abrahamic promises. Verses 19-20 show that the mediation process was needed due to Israel's demonstrated disobedience leading up to the law-giving. It was not given as a universal law to reconcile humanity with God.

In other words, Moses was given the law for a mediation role. But verse 17 shows that the law could not modify the conditions of the promise.
Galatians 3:18 (ESV)
18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Thus, if you want the inheritance promised through Abraham, the Mosaic law is not part of that process. It would only be an obstacle if anything. If you propose that someone who has now become a Christian is somehow placed under the Mosaic law given to Israel, show me where that is. If you think that someone who becomes a Christian will suddenly decided to become a thief, adulterer, and murderer because of grace, explain why that would be natural.

I will remind people of the understanding of Gal 3:19-20 that solves the uncertainty of meaning found in past readings is shared here: #Gal 3:19-20 Solved by the Shema in light of Christ's Divinity

Of course verse 21 shows further that the law was not salvific, so it should not be treated as if it were salvific for people coming to Christ and his grace.

 

[mikesw]

Again, repenting from our disobedience to God's law is a central part of the NT Gospel (Matthew 4:15-23), which was a Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8). Again, the reason why Jesus established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or to cause us to be free to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following God's law (Jeremiah 31:33).

I wondered what point you were quoting from Matthew 4. It has a message given to these guys to be Christ's disciples. That is basically the historical snippet that Matthew provides in vv 18-23, no more, no less.

You should also note that when Jesus speaks of the law, he is speaking to Jews who were under the covenant to which the law applied. Paul conveys the same point in Romans 3:19 (ESV)
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

Just like you (likely) are not in China subject to their laws, the gentile Christians in Rome were not subject to Jewish law. Maybe to your interest, this is not welcoming people to do sinful living. Nor is it likely that people that come to Christ will say "Great. I should go out and steal and commit adultery." I'm not sure why anyone would think in that fashion.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If you think that the definition in the Greek Lexicon is wrong, then you should explain why, especially when Jesus immediately proceeded to teach how to correctly obey God's law after he said that he came to fulfill it, though correctly doing what God's law instructs is meeting its standard.

If you think this will convince me you are wrong

I posted 3 people all who (moses. paul and james) all who claimed that to keep the law is to keep it perfectly. to not break one command.. Even jesus shows this in his sermon, the law says this, But I tell you... And told them if they want to get to God with their righteous deeds. Be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.

Jesus showed us how to obey, by the law of love. Not by keeping laws.

and he came because we could not keep the law. if we could keep the law. we would not need saved, we would have earned a spot in heaven

For example, the law instructs us to honor our parents, so if someone does something that honors them, then they are correctly meeting its standard. If someone does something that is dishonoring their parents, then they need to repent and return to obedience, which is what James was encouraging them to do. According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so while Jesus was the only one who fulfilled it sinlessly, he was far from the only one to fulfill it.

You just proved a person could brake the law. which means they did not keep the law.
You can not fulfill the law. stop watering down the law thinking you kept it.

For the one who sinned, a sacrifice had to be given. That blood sacrifice is what ceremonially cleansed Israel from sin..

Jesus became the lamb of God. BECAUSE you could not keep the law.. Turn to him my friend. the law can not help you

You claims that the law was given to expose our sin and point us to Christ, not show us how to be righteous people, so I showed that the purpose of the law is to teach us how to know God and Jesus by being a doer of His character traits, such as by being a righteous people. Your response does not interact with what I said.

Paul and the author of Hebrews (many believe is paul) shows you in error

10 ;For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Your cursed by the law. Because you have failed to keep or fulfill the law.
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Heb 10: For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

If you move on to something different, then you are disregarding it. God's law could not be accurately describes as being holy, righteous, and good if it were not instructions for how to be holy, righteous, and good. It is impossible for the law to expose unrighteousness without also teaching how to be a doer of righteousness by contrast.


Everything in the Law of Moses is either in regard to how to love God or our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so it is the Law of Love and the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the commandments that hang on them. For example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, idolatry, theft, murder, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of the Law of Moses. Someone who was correctly living in obedience to the greatest two commandments of the Law of Moses would be indistinguishable from someone who was correctly living in obedience to the rest of the Law of Moses because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow, so love is not moving on to something better.

I would suggest you study some. Do not be like the pharisees who claimed to be teachers of the law. but did not understand it.

1 tim 1: 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

 

[Titus]

Again, repenting from our disobedience to God's law is a central part of the NT Gospel (Matthew 4:15-23)

There is no old testament law of Moses in the new testament gospel. You are creating one continuous covenant.

While I agree that all Scripture is profitable, 2 Timothy 3:15-17 refers to Scripture that that Timothy had available to him since childhood, which could only be referring to OT Scripture

Wrong, Paul said it and he was under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Error, some of the new testament was written when Paul wrote his epistle to Timothy.

The Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God spoke to him without departing from it, so the Law of Moses is God's Word

Quote me teaching the Law of Moses is not
God's word.

Again, repenting from our disobedience to God's law is a central part of the NT Gospel

Myself being a gentile. Prove with the old testament that gentiles were under the Law of Moses.

The Mosaic Covenant is eternal (Exodus 31:14-17, Leviticus 24:8),

Wrong. You are ignorant of Hebrew language,
Jonah 2:6,
- I went down to the bottoms of the mountains the earth with her bars was about me  forever yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption O Lord my God

Jonah was not in the belly of the whale forever.
Why do you go on and on About Moses law being forever but ignore the covenant with Abraham? If you are going to be consistent with your interpretation of the word forever and covenant keeping then you better be including the covenant with Abraham because it is forever as well.
1Chronicles 16:17,
- even on the  covenant which He made with Abraham and of His oath unto Isaac
- and hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law and to Israel for an everlasting covenant

The fault that God found with the Mosaic Covenant was not with His law, but with the people for not continuing in their covenant (Hebrews 8:7-9), so the solution to the problem was not for God to do away with His law, but to do away with what was hindering us from obeying it.

Wrong, the people? Again prove with old testament scripture gentiles were bound to keep the law of Moses.

The new testament made the old law of Moses obsolete.
If I cherry pick verses in Hebrews like you are doing I can make it sound like it is saying whatever I want it to say.
That's not how you understand any instruction manual!!!! You must read it all not the verses that make your presuppositional doctrine sound Biblical.

Hebrews 8:13,
- In that He saith a new covenant He hath made the first OBSOLETE NOW that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away

I'll ask you this once: Does the apostles under the new testament law of Christ bind the law of Moses on christians under the new covenant?

If you answer yes, you are not speaking for Jesus Christ's new will and testament but against our Lord, Savior and King.

 

[Soyeong]

I wondered what point you were quoting from Matthew 4. It has a message given to these guys to be Christ's disciples. That is basically the historical snippet that Matthew provides in vv 18-23, no more, no less.

In Matthew 4:15-23, it describes the Gospel that Jesus taught as the message to repent the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so I don't see how you can claim that it was a message given to these guys to be Christ's disciples or diminish the relevance of this passage to the Gospel of the Kingdom.

You should also note that when Jesus speaks of the law, he is speaking to Jews who were under the covenant to which the law applied.

Indeed, Jesus did not establish the New Covenant until the end of his ministry, which means that everything that he taught prior to that point was in regard to how to live under the Mosaic Covenant and is cumulatively relevant to how we should live under the New Covenant. While Jesus focused his ministry on Jews, he commissioned his disciples to bring the Gospel of the Kingdom to the Gentiles and to teach the Gentiles everything that he taught them.

Paul conveys the same point in Romans 3:19 (ESV)
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

The whole can't be held accountable to God by His law if the whole world is not under it. If Gentiles were not obligated God's law, then they would have no need to believe the Gospel of the Kingdom that calls for our repentance from our disobedience to it, they would have no need of Jesus to have given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, and they would have no need for salvation from transgressing it.

Just like you (likely) are not in China subject to their laws, the gentile Christians in Rome were not subject to Jewish law. Maybe to your interest, this is not welcoming people to do sinful living. Nor is it likely that people that come to Christ will say "Great. I should go out and steal and commit adultery." I'm not sure why anyone would think in that fashion.

The Kingdom of God is composed of citizens who are followers of the Law of God in accordance with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of God by word and by example and being a Christian is about being a follower of what he taught. While Gentiles don't need to become Jews in order to become followers of Christ, Gentiles can't follow Christ by refusing to follow what he taught. If you're taking the position that Gentiles coming to Christ aren't turning away from the Law of God, then I'm not sure why you are also taking the position that Gentile Christians are not subject to it. The God of Israel has given instructions through His law for how to know, love, worship, glorify, believe in, and testify about Him by embodying His likeness through being a doer of His character traits, so if your goal is to do those things, then you will voluntarily follow God's instructions for how to do them rather than try to say that you are not subject to them.

The interpretation just given is totally backwards from what Paul wrote. The point was that Christians enjoy the promises given to Abraham and Christ and involve the blessings through Christ. The point of vv17-18 are that the Mosaic law could not change what we get by enjoyment of the Abrahamic promises. Verses 19-20 show that the mediation process was needed due to Israel's demonstrated disobedience leading up to the law-giving. It was not given as a universal law to reconcile humanity with God.

So then are you taking the poison that new covenants do nullify the promises of covenants that have already been ratified so as to making the promises of God void?

In other words, Moses was given the law for a mediation role. But verse 17 shows that the law could not modify the conditions of the promise.
Galatians 3:18 (ESV)
18For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Thus, if you want the inheritance promised through Abraham, the Mosaic law is not part of that process. It would only be an obstacle if anything.

While the promise is not earned as the result of our obedience to God's law, that does not mean that the content of what is promised is not in regard to God's law. The Gospel that Jesus taught in Matthew 4:15-23 that called for our repentance form our disobedience to God's law is in accordance with him being sent as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness, which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), and which he spread to Gentiles in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5).

In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in God's way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiple Abraham's children as the stars in the heavens, to his children He will give all of these lands, and through his children all of the nations of the earth shall be blessed because he heard God's voice and guarded His charge, commandments, statutes, and laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if the children of Abraham will love God with all of their heart by walking in His way in obedience to His commandments, statutes, and laws, then they will live and multiply and God will bless them in the land that they go to possess. So the promises was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that in accordance with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom, and because they did that.

In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as Abraham, so the way that the children of Abraham and multiplied and are a blessing to the nations in accordance with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nations from their wickedness and by teaching them to do the same works as Abraham by walking in God's way in obedience to His law, and the position that God's law is just for Jews is missing the whole point of the promise and of the Gospel.

If you propose that someone who has now become a Christian is somehow placed under the Mosaic law given to Israel, show me where that is. If you think that someone who becomes a Christian will suddenly decided to become a thief, adulterer, and murderer because of grace, explain why that would be natural.

Again, being a Christian is about being a follower of what Christ taught. The laws against theft, adultery, and murder are part of the Mosaic Law. If someone does not have the freedom to do that the Mosaic Law reveals to be wickedness, then there would be no point in them arguing that they aren't under it. If someone holds the position that we are no longer under the Mosaic Law now that Christ has come, then there is no point them also holding the position that someone becoming a Christians doesn't mean that they will suddenly cease to obey it.

I will remind people of the understanding of Gal 3:19-20 that solves the uncertainty of meaning found in past readings is shared here: #Gal 3:19-20 Solved by the Shema in light of Christ's Divinity

Of course verse 21 shows further that the law was not salvific, so it should not be treated as if it were salvific for people coming to Christ and his grace.

While we do not earn eternal life as the result of our obedience to God's law, there are many verses that making abundantly clear that the way to have eternal life is obeying it. For example, in Romans 2:6-7, Paul said that those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit the gift of eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Mosaic Law. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey Him. In Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification and the goal of sanctification is eternal life is Christ, which is the gift of God, so being a doer of the Mosaic Law is His gift of eternal life.

 

[mikesw]

I probably cannot change Soyeong's concepts, but I can address the problems with those.

In Matthew 4:15-23, it describes the Gospel that Jesus taught as the message to repent the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so I don't see how you can claim that it was a message given to these guys to be Christ's disciples or diminish the relevance of this passage to the Gospel of the Kingdom.

About Mat 4:15-23
That passage is very narrow. Only Matt 4:15 could possibly extend to gentiles, but that does not put them under the Mosaic law. Also, the kingdom of God was of interest to the Jews. If this had been preached to the gentiles, they would simply have been confused by the idea.

Indeed, Jesus did not establish the New Covenant until the end of his ministry, which means that everything that he taught prior to that point was in regard to how to live under the Mosaic Covenant and is cumulatively relevant to how we should live under the New Covenant. While Jesus focused his ministry on Jews, he commissioned his disciples to bring the Gospel of the Kingdom to the Gentiles and to teach the Gentiles everything that he taught them.

About the Great Commission...
False. He commissioned the 12 to go to the Jewish nations. They did not realize that gentiles were included until Acts 10. I know people misuse Matt 28:19-20 because they do not read it carefully, nor in the Jewish context of Matthew.

The whole can't be held accountable to God by His law if the whole world is not under it. If Gentiles were not obligated God's law, then they would have no need to believe the Gospel of the Kingdom that calls for our repentance from our disobedience to it, they would have no need of Jesus to have given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, and they would have no need for salvation from transgressing it.

I understand your confusion of Rom 3:19. However, the baseline to read Romans 3 is that gentiles knew they were considered sinners. So, Rom 3:9-20 was to show that Jews were no closer to righteousness through the law than gentiles were without being under the law. You have learned a common error of reading Romans, so you just need to skip using this passage.

The Kingdom of God is composed of citizens who are followers of the Law of God in accordance with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of God by word and by example and being a Christian is about being a follower of what he taught. While Gentiles don't need to become Jews in order to become followers of Christ, Gentiles can't follow Christ by refusing to follow what he taught. If you're taking the position that Gentiles coming to Christ aren't turning away from the Law of God, then I'm not sure why you are also taking the position that Gentile Christians are not subject to it.

Regarding Kingdom of God ...
I have no idea where you get that summation of the kingdom of God. oh well.
Jesus spoke to Jews who were under the Mosaic law and even over-focused on it, as if they could get righteous by it. I try to imagine which verses you use for your view on this. I repeat Rom 3:19, which was to tell the gentiles the Mosaic law was not for them.
The law just got distorted and made the focus of their practices. In reality, it was code covering criminal law, civil law, priestly law, health practices, and festival (or cultural) elements. It would not have relevance to gentiles. Jesus did not teach to do the law but he shared problems caused by the Jewish creation of new laws and of judging each other.

The God of Israel has given instructions through His law for how to know, love, worship, glorify, believe in, and testify about Him by embodying His likeness through being a doer of His character traits, so if your goal is to do those things, then you will voluntarily follow God's instructions for how to do them rather than try to say that you are not subject to them.

About God's supposed instruction to "love, worship" ...
Paul shares that laws were not given on good things to do. (Sure, there are some exceptions -- like returning lost items and gleaning laws.) There are no instructions to give a shirt to someone who has none or to be hospitable, etc...
If there are good things to do and are volunteered action, that is fine to do. If someone is unrighteous (i.e. lacking Christ), they will have to have a law over them.

So then are you taking the poison that new covenants do nullify the promises of covenants that have already been ratified so as to making the promises of God void?

Regarding covenants, Isarel, and gentiles ....
I have explained Gal 3:16-20. I cannot keep explaining it and expecting you to correct your wrong belief. Okay here is something...
The Mosaic covenant was not broken or nullified. It was completed. It was a covenant to the Israel people. If a Jew had decided to stay under that instead of the better covenant through Christ, they could have done that -- and probably suffer the consequences.
Gentiles never were under the Mosaic covenant, so being in Christ only brought gentiles to the Abrahamic covenant. I hope this point helps.

While the promise is not earned as the result of our obedience to God's law, that does not mean that the content of what is promised is not in regard to God's law. The Gospel that Jesus taught in Matthew 4:15-23 that called for our repentance form our disobedience to God's law is in accordance with him being sent as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness, which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), and which he spread to Gentiles in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5).

Again about Matt 4:15-23...
You have sort of gone around in a circle here. If you think your sins are still accumulating, you need to reevaluate the promises in Christ. If you are thinking you are a Christian while murdering people -- David had done that and still was with God, but that is not permission to do the same.
I have no idea what you mean about Abraham sharing any message of God with people in Haran. Is that some sort of Christian mythology?

In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in God's way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiple Abraham's children as the stars in the heavens, to his children He will give all of these lands, and through his children all of the nations of the earth shall be blessed because he heard God's voice and guarded His charge, commandments, statutes, and laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if the children of Abraham will love God with all of their heart by walking in His way in obedience to His commandments, statutes, and laws, then they will live and multiply and God will bless them in the land that they go to possess. So the promises was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that in accordance with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom, and because they did that.

Regarding Gen 18,26 and Deut 30 ...
The works did not involve the law. The action required was to accept the promised Messiah. The idea that Abraham followed the Mosaic law was Jewish exaltation of the criminal code shared to them by Moses.
Abraham had no law of God except to leave his home for the promised land. The blessings promise was not fulfilled until Christ, so I'm not sure what you think Abraham taught Isaac.

In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as Abraham, so the way that the children of Abraham and multiplied and are a blessing to the nations in accordance with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nations from their wickedness and by teaching them to do the same works as Abraham by walking in God's way in obedience to His law, and the position that God's law is just for Jews is missing the whole point of the promise and of the Gospel.

Regarding John 8:39 incident ...
I do not think Jesus was telling them they failed to be a blessing to the nations. His issue was their rejection of himself -- to whatever they thought he was. I think many recognized him as a possible prophet though.
You really do exalt the law mentality.

Again, being a Christian is about being a follower of what Christ taught. The laws against theft, adultery, and murder are part of the Mosaic Law. If someone does not have the freedom to do that the Mosaic Law reveals to be wickedness, then there would be no point in them arguing that they aren't under it. If someone holds the position that we are no longer under the Mosaic Law now that Christ has come, then there is no point them also holding the position that someone becoming a Christians doesn't mean that they will suddenly cease to obey it.

About Mosaic law against theft, adultery ...
Since gentiles are not under the Mosaic criminal code, they are not obligated to it. They likely will not violate the criminal code of the countries they live in. While it can be said that God gave much important concepts of criminal code, it does not mean that all people are under the conditions of the Mosaic law. In fact, no places or people actually even follow the processes and punishments specifically given in the Mosaic law. Also, if a Christian sins, he is forgiven through Christ.
And my point about people not suddenly becoming murderers upon following Christ, I share that against the fear of people somehow becoming wicked upon following Christ, as if not being under the Mosaic law will inspire them to be wicked.

While we do not earn eternal life as the result of our obedience to God's law, there are many verses that making abundantly clear that the way to have eternal life is obeying it. For example, in Romans 2:6-7, Paul said that those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit the gift of eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Mosaic Law.

I'm curious whether you were taught this broad view of your post or something you came up with on your own.
Rom 2:6-7 is about good works rather than works of the law. That is about showing love, not just avoiding murder of a neighbor each day.
Luke 10:25-28 is followed by the parable of the good Samaritan. It was showing that man's claim to follow the law was off track since the important point was to show mercy. Even if this man followed the law, his heart was wicked, especially as seen by his testing of Jesus.
Jesus was speaking as a teacher within Judaism of that day. Actually the part that Jesus endorsed was loving God and loving one's neighbor, not the letter of the law.

In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey Him. In Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification and the goal of sanctification is eternal life is Christ, which is the gift of God, so being a doer of the Mosaic Law is His gift of eternal life.

Jesus gave us the law of love. Indeed obey that. I'm not sure why that is a problem.
Rom 6:19-23 is to free the gentiles who got caught up in the fleshly behavior. He did not try to tell them to obey the Mosaic law. Your over-zealous focus on the Mosaic law led you to misread this passage.

I should add that anyone who thinks he is following the Mosaic law as a Christians is totally mistaken in that view. Unless you are stoning people caught in extra-marital sex (as one example), you are not following it.

Hope this all helps.

 

[Soyeong]

If you think this will convince me you are wrong

The definition of fulfilling the law that I quoted from the NAS Greek Lexicon is in accordance with what Jesus immediately did next after he said that he came to fulfill the law, it fits with how other verses use the phrase, and it fits with how other Jewish writings us the phrase. On the other hand, the Bible does not speak about fulfilling the law as though it were something that is impossible for us to do that only Christ can do for us. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law and anyone can do that. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the law of Christ and anyone can do that. So if you want to be convincing to me, then you need to explain why my position is wrong.

I posted 3 people all who (moses. paul and james) all who claimed that to keep the law is to keep it perfectly. to not break one command.. Even jesus shows this in his sermon, the law says this, But I tell you... And told them if they want to get to God with their righteous deeds. Be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.

None of those people were speaking about your concept of perfect obedience. Again, there would be no point in telling people who had already sinned that they need to have perfect obedience. In James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had sinned by showing favoritism, so he was not telling them that they needed to have perfect obedience because that would already be too late, but rather he was encouraging them to repent had obey God's law more consistently. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have not had perfect obedience, so if we needed to have perfect obedience for some strange reason, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we are not required to have perfect obedience. God's law came with instructions for what to do when His people sinned, so someone can continue to be a doer of the law by following those instructions even though they have not had perfect obedience. Jesus was speaking about having a love that is full, complete, or refined, where we don't just love those who love us but also love our enemies, not about needing to have sinless obedience.

Jesus showed us how to obey, by the law of love. Not by keeping laws.

Jesus set a perfect example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law and of how to love, so it is the law of love and so you have no basis for claiming otherwise.

and he came because we could not keep the law.

Nowhere does the Bible say that, but rather it says the opposite. In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to keep and that keeping brings life and blessing while not keeping it brings death and a curse, so choose life!

if we could keep the law. we would not need saved, we would have earned a spot in heaven

Rather, if we couldn't keep God's law, then we couldn't be saved from not keeping it and it is only because Jesus can graciously tech us to keep it that He can give us his gift of saving us from not keeping it. God's law was never given as way to earn our spot in Heaven even through perfect obedience.

You just proved a person could brake the law. which means they did not keep the law.

For example, just because someone has done something that dishonored their parents does not mean that they have never honored them, so there is a huge difference between someone not keeping God's law perfectly and someone not keeping it.

You can not fulfill the law. stop watering down the law thinking you kept it.

Again, according to Galatians 5:14 countless people have fulfilled the entire law.

For the one who sinned, a sacrifice had to be given. That blood sacrifice is what ceremonially cleansed Israel from sin..

Jesus became the lamb of God. BECAUSE you could not keep the law.. Turn to him my friend. the law can not help you

It is contradictory to think that God can help us but that His instructions can't help us or to think that we should turn to God's Word made flesh instead of God's Word.

Paul and the author of Hebrews (many believe is paul) shows you in error

If you want to show that I am in error, then you need to show how I've misunderstood the parts of Scripture that I used to support my position, otherwise you are just pitting the Bible against itself.

10 ;For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Your cursed by the law. Because you have failed to keep or fulfill the law.

According to Deuteronomy 27-30, the way to be blessed is by obediently relying on the Book of the Law while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so you should not interpret Galatians 3:10 as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage. The fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do all things which are written in the Book of the Law straightforwardly means that only way to avoid being cursed is by continue to rely on the Book of the Law, which is why those who rely on works of the law instead come under the curse for not continuing to reply on the Book of the Law.

In Roman 3:27, Paul contrasted law of works with a law of faith, in Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted the Book the Law with "works of the law", and in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-12, he said that our faith upholds the Law of God in contrast with saying that "works of the law" are not of faith, so that phrases does not refer to the Law of God, which is why all those who rely on them instead of the Law of God come its curse. In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the difference between being under God's blessing or His curse is not based on whether or not we have perfect obedience, but on whether we choose to serve God or to chase after other gods. While everyone in the OT sinned and fell short of the glory of God, everyone being under God's curse does not reflect the reality of what is recorded about those who served God, just those who chased after other gods.

In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys the Law of God shall live by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to God's law. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer righteous works in obedience to the Law of God is righteous even as they are righteous, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to an alternative means of living that is not in obedience to it. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions, it is contradictory to think that we should trust in God for salvation but not in His instructions, and the position that God is a giver of untrustworthy instructions that are not of faith is a position that denies the truth worthiness and faithfulness of God.

In Deuteronomy 27-30, it describes the blessing of lawfulness and the curse of lawlessness, so being redeemed from the curse of the law is being redeem from our lawlessness so that we can be free to enjoy the blessing of lawfulness. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the Law of God, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works. It is not the failure to keep God's law that causes someone to be cursed, but the failure to repent and return to God that does that.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

Jesus did not come with the Gospel message to stop repenting because God's law has ended now that he has come and we are now free to become doers of what it reveals to be wickedness, but rather he came with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was in accordance with him being sent as the promised seed to bless us by tuning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26).

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the law lead us to Christ because it was given in order to teach us how to know Him, but it does not lead us to him so that we can then reject everything he taught and go back to doing what God's law reveals to be sin. Someone who disregarded everything that their tutor taught them after the purpose had been fulfilled would be missing the whole point of the purpose of a tutor.

In Galatians 3:26-29, every aspect of being children of God, through faith, in Christ and children of Abraham and heirs to the promise is all directly connected with being a doer of God's law. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who are not doers of righteousness in obedience to God's law are not children of God. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked. In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him.

Heb 10: For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

We should testify about the good things to come by continuing to follow Christ's example of obedience to God's law rather than a way that bears false witness against what is to come.

I would suggest you study some. Do not be like the pharisees who claimed to be teachers of the law. but did not understand it.

1 tim 1: 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

The Bible can speak against doing something for an incorrect reason without speaking against doing it for the correct reasons, so speaking against those who desire to be teachers of the law who do not understand what they say or affirm is not speaking against those who do understand what we say and affirm. In 1 Timothy 1:8, it says that God's law is good if it used properly, so there is a correct use for it.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The definition of fulfilling the law that I quoted from the NAS Greek Lexicon is in accordance with what Jesus immediately did next after he said that he came to fulfill the law, it fits with how other verses use the phrase, and it fits with how other Jewish writings us the phrase. On the other hand, the Bible does not speak about fulfilling the law as though it were something that is impossible for us to do that only Christ can do for us. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law and anyone can do that. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the law of Christ and anyone can do that. So if you want to be convincing to me, then you need to explain why my position is wrong.


None of those people were speaking about your concept of perfect obedience. Again, there would be no point in telling people who had already sinned that they need to have perfect obedience. In James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had sinned by showing favoritism, so he was not telling them that they needed to have perfect obedience because that would already be too late, but rather he was encouraging them to repent had obey God's law more consistently. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have not had perfect obedience, so if we needed to have perfect obedience for some strange reason, then repentance would have no value, but the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we are not required to have perfect obedience. God's law came with instructions for what to do when His people sinned, so someone can continue to be a doer of the law by following those instructions even though they have not had perfect obedience. Jesus was speaking about having a love that is full, complete, or refined, where we don't just love those who love us but also love our enemies, not about needing to have sinless obedience.


Jesus set a perfect example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law and of how to love, so it is the law of love and so you have no basis for claiming otherwise.


Nowhere does the Bible say that, but rather it says the opposite. In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to keep and that keeping brings life and blessing while not keeping it brings death and a curse, so choose life!


Rather, if we couldn't keep God's law, then we couldn't be saved from not keeping it and it is only because Jesus can graciously tech us to keep it that He can give us his gift of saving us from not keeping it. God's law was never given as way to earn our spot in Heaven even through perfect obedience.


For example, just because someone has done something that dishonored their parents does not mean that they have never honored them, so there is a huge difference between someone not keeping God's law perfectly and someone not keeping it.


Again, according to Galatians 5:14 countless people have fulfilled the entire law.


It is contradictory to think that God can help us but that His instructions can't help us or to think that we should turn to God's Word made flesh instead of God's Word.


If you want to show that I am in error, then you need to show how I've misunderstood the parts of Scripture that I used to support my position, otherwise you are just pitting the Bible against itself.


According to Deuteronomy 27-30, the way to be blessed is by obediently relying on the Book of the Law while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so you should not interpret Galatians 3:10 as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage. The fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do all things which are written in the Book of the Law straightforwardly means that only way to avoid being cursed is by continue to rely on the Book of the Law, which is why those who rely on works of the law instead come under the curse for not continuing to reply on the Book of the Law.

In Roman 3:27, Paul contrasted law of works with a law of faith, in Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted the Book the Law with "works of the law", and in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-12, he said that our faith upholds the Law of God in contrast with saying that "works of the law" are not of faith, so that phrases does not refer to the Law of God, which is why all those who rely on them instead of the Law of God come its curse. In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the difference between being under God's blessing or His curse is not based on whether or not we have perfect obedience, but on whether we choose to serve God or to chase after other gods. While everyone in the OT sinned and fell short of the glory of God, everyone being under God's curse does not reflect the reality of what is recorded about those who served God, just those who chased after other gods.

In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys the Law of God shall live by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to God's law. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer righteous works in obedience to the Law of God is righteous even as they are righteous, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to an alternative means of living that is not in obedience to it. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions, it is contradictory to think that we should trust in God for salvation but not in His instructions, and the position that God is a giver of untrustworthy instructions that are not of faith is a position that denies the truth worthiness and faithfulness of God.

In Deuteronomy 27-30, it describes the blessing of lawfulness and the curse of lawlessness, so being redeemed from the curse of the law is being redeem from our lawlessness so that we can be free to enjoy the blessing of lawfulness. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the Law of God, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works. It is not the failure to keep God's law that causes someone to be cursed, but the failure to repent and return to God that does that.


Jesus did not come with the Gospel message to stop repenting because God's law has ended now that he has come and we are now free to become doers of what it reveals to be wickedness, but rather he came with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was in accordance with him being sent as the promised seed to bless us by tuning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26).


In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the law lead us to Christ because it was given in order to teach us how to know Him, but it does not lead us to him so that we can then reject everything he taught and go back to doing what God's law reveals to be sin. Someone who disregarded everything that their tutor taught them after the purpose had been fulfilled would be missing the whole point of the purpose of a tutor.

In Galatians 3:26-29, every aspect of being children of God, through faith, in Christ and children of Abraham and heirs to the promise is all directly connected with being a doer of God's law. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who are not doers of righteousness in obedience to God's law are not children of God. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked. In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him.


We should testify about the good things to come by continuing to follow Christ's example of obedience to God's law rather than a way that bears false witness against what is to come.


The Bible can speak against doing something for an incorrect reason without speaking against doing it for the correct reasons, so speaking against those who desire to be teachers of the law who do not understand what they say or affirm is not speaking against those who do understand what we say and affirm. In 1 Timothy 1:8, it says that God's law is good if it used properly, so there is a correct use for it.

lol..

Good luck

You explain to Jesus why you watered down his law

I will continue to seek out his guidance.. and stop watering down his law

 

[Soyeong]

lol..

Good luck

You explain to Jesus why you watered down his law

I will continue to seek out his guidance.. and stop watering down his law

I said nothing to water down His law, but rather I am speaking in favor of following Christ's example of obedience to it.

 

[Soyeong]

@Eternally-Grateful

Can you please explain your understanding of character traits? How can someone gain a character trait? What does it mean for someone to gain a character trait? Is it possible for anyone to have a character trait when we all fall show of perfect adherence to them?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I said nothing to water down His law, but rather I am speaking in favor of following Christ's example of obedience to it.

if you claim one can fulfill the law. after he has broken the law. then you are watering down the law

I showed you three men of God who claimed perfect obedience was required. If you even stumble in one point your guilty. Under a curse etc etc.

again, when you say I can fulfill the law and not be perfect. you not only call scripture a liar but these three men of God.

 

[Soyeong]

if you claim one can fulfill the law. after he has broken the law. then you are watering down the law

I showed you three men of God who claimed perfect obedience was required. If you even stumble in one point your guilty. Under a curse etc etc.

again, when you say I can fulfill the law and not be perfect. you not only call scripture a liar but these three men of God.

I did not take the position that Scripture or those men of God are liars, but rather I took the position that you have misinterpreted them for reasons that I’ve stated that you have ignored. However, even if your interpretation were correct that we need to have sinless obedience, then they did not state that the reason why we need to have it is in order to meet the requirement of fulfilling the law - that is an unjustified interpretive leap. On the other hand, the Bible does state that we can fulfill the entire law by loving our neighbor. If someone breaks any law and becomes a lawbreaker, the. It does not mean that they have never fulfilled the law by loving their neighbor. James was encouraging them to repent and the fact that we can repent means that we don’t need perfect obedience, so the passage undermines how you are trying to use it. If we needed perfect obedience to to a avoid being cursed, then we would Al be cursed, but that does not reflect the reality of what is recorded above those who serve God and even if we were all cursed, then that wouldn’t mean that we have never fulfilled the law by loving our neighbor.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I did not take the position that Scripture or those men of God are liars, but rather I took the position that you have misinterpreted them for reasons that I’ve stated that you have ignored. However, even if your interpretation were correct that we need to have sinless obedience, then they did not state that the reason why we need to have it is in order to meet the requirement of fulfilling the law - that is an unjustified interpretive leap. On the other hand, the Bible does state that we can fulfill the entire law by loving our neighbor. If someone breaks any law and becomes a lawbreaker, the. It does not mean that they have never fulfilled the law by loving their neighbor. James was encouraging them to repent and the fact that we can repent means that we don’t need perfect obedience, so the passage undermines how you are trying to use it. If we needed perfect obedience to to a avoid being cursed, then we would Al be cursed, but that does not reflect the reality of what is recorded above those who serve God and even if we were all cursed, then that wouldn’t mean that we have never fulfilled the law by loving our neighbor.

you need to learn basic math my friend

Lets use the ten commands as an example

God gave ten.

He told you to not break one command, if you do you are cursed.

in mathematical terms. that means 100 % is required.

what happens if you do not hold that standard?

"cursed is the one"

it means you failed to keep the law.

I have not misrepresented them my friend. I have stated what they said. and confirmed that what they said is true

if you think you can stumble in one of these ten commands. and still fulfill the requirement. You have watered down the law to a point you can convince yourself you have kept it

Sadly. when you meet the judge, He will hold you accountable.

 

[mikesw]

You have quite an unusual view of applying the law to Christians. Do you have someone teaching you this or is this your own idea?

I did not take the position that Scripture or those men of God are liars, but rather I took the position that you have misinterpreted them for reasons that I’ve stated that you have ignored. However, even if your interpretation were correct that we need to have sinless obedience, then they did not state that the reason why we need to have it is in order to meet the requirement of fulfilling the law - that is an unjustified interpretive leap.

Jesus is the only one who has fulfilled the Mosaic law as per Matt 5:17. This verse also anticipates people's recognition that the law era came to an end. But it was not abolished simply because the Jews were going to be judged by it based on their seeking of righteousness through it (Rom 9:30-33). If you want to be judged by it, try living by it.

On the other hand, the Bible does state that we can fulfill the entire law by loving our neighbor. If someone breaks any law and becomes a lawbreaker, the. It does not mean that they have never fulfilled the law by loving their neighbor.

The fulfillment here reflects a fulfillment of the summary purpose of the law -- of loving one's neighbor. It is not telling them to live based on the letter of the law. The message is about seeking ways to love one's neighbor. Few Mosaic laws can actually demonstrate love in a positive sense. Most of it is a negative sense -- do not covet your neighbor's wife. To focus on the Mosaic law is to hinder one's walk with Christ.

James was encouraging them to repent and the fact that we can repent means that we don’t need perfect obedience, so the passage undermines how you are trying to use it. If we needed perfect obedience to to a avoid being cursed, then we would Al be cursed, but that does not reflect the reality of what is recorded above those who serve God and even if we were all cursed, then that wouldn’t mean that we have never fulfilled the law by loving our neighbor.

To place yourself under the Mosaic law is to have a curse looming over you --
Deuteronomy 27:26 (ESV)
26“ ‘Cursed be anyone who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

So, if a Christian, do love one's neighbor, but not by the letter of the Mosaic law.