Gods Innate Attributes

[praise_yeshua]

I agree with what you're saying that there is duration and sequence of events God experiences, as we would say with time. I agree a great many Bible teachers have take great liberty in assuming they've got the TIME thing all worked out. But how do you explain (if you understand it) Time dilation. I don't think you could define time as just sequencing There's something more peculiar about it than that.

​

Does time dilation affect experience? I can't say that we know that it does.

 

[Rockson]

Does time dilation affect experience? I can't say that we know that it does.

I'd say it very much does . Here's a 10 minute video which would reveal why it would. Forgive the use of the film Interstellar to explain this out.

 

[Logikos]

It is a quality of God's existence. Such is always relative. We seek God.

By relative, I presume you meant relevant and no, it is not relevant.

God is Love. However, that doesn't mean that God didn't create love among humanity.

Yes, it does mean exactly that.

We do not love in the same manner God loves.

Yes, we do. We were created for that precise purpose.

We may do things that are similar but not identical.

What does that even mean?

Recognizing such variances are important in our discussion of God.

Yes, well merely showing up and declaring that there are "variances" doesn't make it so.

If you want to clarify and expand on just what you mean, we may find common ground, but as stated, I have no evidence that you even know what it is that you're talking about.

 

[Logikos]

I'm seeking to understand how your view of "predication" works.

View of predication?

It appears to be similar to those who advocate for the death of the "wicked" as they see it.

What are you talking about?

I believe most everything about God is predicated upon His love.

Love has no meaning outside of relationship. Relationship has no meaning except between people with a mind that works.

I don't believe that our sin challenges God's Holiness. We are powerless to sustain anything.

Meaningless.

I believe God begins with loving sinners. You know how I can tell? You and I are still alive......

Nonsense.

First of all, God does love everyone, aside perhaps from Satan and the demons.

Secondly, God hates sinners. Not just sin, He hates evil people. The bible tells us this over and over and over again. All you have to do is read it.

No, that is not a contradiction. Love and hate are not mutually exclusive. You can love someone enough to warn them that their actions will result in death and you can even provide for a way of escape. In this way, God loves every human man, woman and child that have ever existed. But He also loves the righteous and He loves Himself and will not permit sin to enter into His realm both for His own sake and for the sake of those who seek Him by faith.

How does justice allow the wicked to live without God's love?

Romans 5:
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Life is a gift. Living is just a foretaste of Glory Divine. Those that taste of life's goodness from God, want to live forever.

It is offered to us as a free gift but it wasn't free. It cost God His life's blood. Thus, forgiveness and mercy is not arbitrary but just! If it were not then Jesus need not have died.

 

[Logikos]

We agree on a few things here. However, I would add that a God absent neverending sequence, is quantifiable. "ages without end".

Well, any Calvinist you know definitely believes in a God "absent neverending sequence" or any other kind of sequence for that matter. They believe in the god of Aristotle who lives in an eternal now. He exist simultaneously in all places and at all times. He's simultaneously hanging on the cross, He's in Mary's birth canal, He's creating light and He's burning this Earth to a cinder and all of everything else as well. No sequences, no duration, it's all just happening all at once and forever in God's completely irrational immutable existence.

 

[Kenny]

Come on people smile on your brother...

IF I [can] speak in the tongues of men and [even] of angels, but have not love (that reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion such as is inspired by God’s love for and in us), I am only a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I have prophetic powers (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), and understand all the secret truths and mysteries and possess all knowledge, and if I have [sufficient] faith so that I can remove mountains, but have not love (God’s love in me) I am nothing (a useless nobody).
3 Even if I dole out all that I have [to the poor in providing] food, and if I surrender my body to be burned or in order that I may glory, but have not love (God’s love in me), I gain nothing.
4 Love endures long and is patient and kind; love never is envious nor boils over with jealousy, is not boastful or vainglorious, does not display itself haughtily.
5 It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God’s love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong].
6 It does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness, but rejoices when right and truth prevail.
7 Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening].
8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].
9 For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect).
10 But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded).
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; now that I have become a man, I am done with childish ways and have put them aside.
12 For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been fully and clearly known and understood [by God].
13 And so faith, hope, love abide [faith—conviction and belief respecting man’s relation to God and divine things; hope—joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation; love—true affection for God and man, growing out of God’s love for and in us], these three; but the greatest of these is love.
1 Co 13:1–13
The next chapter is even better!

 

[Logikos]

I agree with what you're saying that there is duration and sequence of events God experiences, as we would say with time. I agree a great many Bible teachers have take great liberty in assuming they've got the TIME thing all worked out. But how do you explain (if you understand it) Time dilation. I don't think you could define time as just sequencing There's something more peculiar about it than that.

Outstanding question!

"Time dilation" has to do with clocks, not time.

The past does not exist and neither does the future. All that exists, exists now. Regardless of how fast or slow one's clock is running relative to some other clock, no one ever leaves the present moment.

Read this...

Summit Clock Experiment 2.0: Time is Absolute​

Incidentally, space does not exist. It too, like time, is an idea. It is a convention of language used to convey information related to the size and position of objects relative to other objects. It is exactly that same thing as time except that the idea is applied to objects rather than events. If you add a dimension to your mathematics and arbitrarily call it space/time, it can work because there isn't anything physical about either of those two things.

And just like with time, the effects on "space" that are inherent in Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity has to do with the measuring devices (i.e. your ruler or whatever), not space itself, which, as I said, doesn't exist.

 

[Aeliana]

Amen to that @Kenny Love is definitely where it's at. The truth is that we talk about what we love the most. Most folks love their kids more than anything on earth, so they brag about their children every chance they get. Some people love possessions more than anything else, so you will hear them talking about money, or their new boat or new vacation home.

Then there are some people who talk about Jesus more than anything else. Why? Because they love Jesus more than anything or anyone else in the world. Consequently, they can’t help themselves. They just can’t keep from talking about Jesus for very long.

 

[Logikos]

Amen to that @Kenny Love is definitely where it's at. The truth is that we talk about what we love the most. Most folks love their kids more than anything on earth, so they brag about their children every chance they get. Some people love possessions more than anything else, so you will hear them talking about money, or their new boat or new vacation home.

Then there are some people who talk about Jesus more than anything else. Why? Because they love Jesus more than anything or anyone else in the world. Consequently, they can’t help themselves. They just can’t keep from talking about Jesus for very long.

Tell me, in the context of what you just said above, what does it mean to love?

 

[Aeliana]

Tell me, in the context of what you just said above, what does it mean to love?

I'm sure you don't need me to tell you. All you have to do is look in the Book of John and 1st John. They don't call him the apostle of love for nothing. 1 John pops the cork on the bottle. It’s a book about intimacy and love between the believer and God and between believer and believer.
We love him, because he first loved us.1st John 4:19

Luke 7:47 also expresses it clearly
This is why I tell you that her many sins have been forgiven; so she has shown great love. The one who is forgiven little loves little.”

I've had 1 John 1:1–4 explained this way. That John was talking about two forces which increase our experience of God’s love. First is the “Centripetal Force” of our Magnetic Messiah—He keeps drawing us closer to Him if we let Him. Second is the “Centrifugal Force” of Jesus—He sends us out to share His love with others.

Just as the Magnetic Messiah drew us in through concentric circles, the ripples of our love relationship with Him go out.

 

[Logikos]

I agree with this example, only you cannot used it against the two doctrines of

Just because you cannot accept that both cannot be true of God~yet, they are very true.

It isn't my opinion. Contradictions cannot actually exist. Which is to say that two truth claims that contradict each other cannot BOTH be true in the same context.

The concept of timeless existence is self-contradictory and is therefore false - by definition.

Here's where faith must ruled over our own wisdom of believing in the God of the holy scriptures, whose infinite attributes are past mortal man's ability to comprehend just a very small degree of his greatness.

Now it is you who are committing a stolen concept fallacy!

You cannot read the holy scriptures without reason, Red! Every attempt you make to undermine reason, uses reason to make the attempt! You affirm the validity of reason by opening your mouth to utter the first intelligible syllable of your argument against it. You defeat your own position by just showing up to debate it!

Any doctrine that is irrational is false because that's what it means for something to be false. Without reason there is no such thing as true or false.

So, you want us to believe that both cannot be true, yet they are both true.

No, they aren't.

If Elihu could say they did not know him, how much less do we know God's greatness~truly we know very little~Job 32:23~"Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict.~ You would be much wiser if you went back and read Job 32-37 and humble yourself before God's greatness, and believe with child like faith what you cannot reconcile in your pitiful mind, that is incapable of knowing God's greatness, we simply accept what we can not understand because of God's testimony concerning himself ~and that testimony is: that he is a Spirit that dwells in eternity with no beginning and no end ~ and beside him, there is no God according to his own testimony.

God is indeed great beyond my ability to comprehend and His way are beyond finding out but not because He's irrational but because I don't have access to the information nor the context from which to even begin to interpret or understand that information. God's ways are HIGHER than our ways, NOT LOWER! God is not irrational! Indeed, John 1 tells us that God IS Reason (Logos). He could no more be irrational than He could be unrighteous!

That's good enough for me~it truly boils down to whether or not we believe the scriptures, over our finite and pitiful weak minds.

That verse is not an excuse to believe whatever wacko irrational nonsense that we want. All you're doing here is creating an all inclusive doctrinal trump card that you can toss down anytime someone points out that your doctrine is contradictory.

You change the meaning of eternal to mean timeless, when it does not mean that.

I do not change the meaning of eternal to mean timeless, Calvin did that, Augustine did that, Aristotle and Plato did that. I am saying that there is no such thing as timelessness. It's a contradiction!

You are using Greek logic to put God into a time box, when that is impossible.

There is no such thing as "Greek logic". Logic is logic, the fact that the Greek get credit for it is only because theirs are the oldest writings we have that talk about it. They didn't invent it, they simply wrote down its principles. Sound reason is nothing at all other than conforming one's mind to the limitation of reality. Reality exists and it does not contradict itself. That's all of logic in one sentence.

Even now, God who is a Spirit, dwells in eternity, and his Son is exalted to his right hand~(now, God does not have hands as we do, so the meaning is that Christ is exalted as high as one can be exalted in a glorified flesh who we shall see) whom Christ shall be subject to when the kingdom of God is set up in its final and eternal state of glory in the new heavens and earth. Though Jesus Christ is the true God, and eternal life, yet as a man he will be subject unto God, who is a Spirit that no one has ever seen, or will ever see, impossible and not be consumed.

All irrelevant doctrine that isn't so by virtue of the fact that you showed up to state it.

Concerning God's attribute of being Omnipresent~is not a greek idea it is God's own testimony of himself!

No. As normally taught, the doctrine of Omnipresence is entirely derived from Plato and was imported into the church by Augustine in the 5th century.

SIr, it is not that God can be, but the very word must mean that he is, and the scriptures declares clearly that he is.

No, it flatly does not declare or even imply any such thing. If it did, it would falsify the scriptures.

God’s presence is continuous from eternity past to eternity future and throughout all of creation ~ past, present and future.

Nonsense. Unbiblical, irrational stupidity that no one (that we have any record of) believed at all before Aristotle (4th century BC). Such a notion is COMPLETELY foreign to the bible.

The Bible reveals that God can be both present to a person in a manifest manner (Psalm 46:1; Isaiah 57:15) and present in every situation in all of creation at any given time (Psalm 33:13-14).

Those verses simply do not teach what you are saying they teach. You are reading your doctrine into the text.

Those verses say nothing at all the contradicts a single syllable of what I said!

Omnipresence is God’s characteristic of being present to all ranges of both time and space.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Although God is present in all time and space, God is not locally limited to any time or space.

Neither time nor space exist except as ideas inside a thinking mind.

God is everywhere and in every now.

Nonsense.

No molecule or atomic particle is so small that God is not fully present to it, and no galaxy so vast that God does not circumscribe it. But if we were to remove creation, God would still know of it, for He knows all possibilities, whether they are actual or not.

You're great at stating your doctrine but naked as a new born baby when it comes to establishing as actual truth.

If this is not so, then pray to tell me how God will judge every idle word that a man has ever spoken?

Is this verse so, or not? Of course it is true.

There are many possibilities, not the least of which is that this biblical statement is hyperbole. But even if it is literally true, there are several possible ways, all of which require one degree of speculation or another but none of which are irrational, which is the point.

Why should we even pray, if God doesn't hear our prayers? And if he hears, then he must be presence everywhere at once, which he is.

God is able to be know everything that He wants to know, Red!

Sir, eternity is outside of time, time does not exist in eternity where God dwells.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

God is naturally present in every aspect of the natural order of things, in every manner, time and place (Isaiah 40:12; Nahum 1:3).

Those verses do not say what you just said! You are reading your doctrine into the text.

God is actively present in a different way in every event in history as provident guide of human affairs (Psalm 48:7; 2 Chronicles 20:37; Daniel 5:5-6).

Those verses do not say what you just said! You are reading your doctrine into the text.

You have been deceived by Greek philosophy, or, by your own deceived heart.

Saying it doesn't make it so and if reason doesn't work, as you suggest, there'd be no way for you to even know this nor any way for me to fix it.

Indeed, if your doctrine is true, I believe precisely and ONLY what God predestined that I would believe and have no ability whatsoever to do otherwise.

 

[Logikos]

I'm sure you don't need me to tell you.

No but I'm starting a conversation.

All you have to do is look in the Book of John and 1st John. They don't call him the apostle of love for nothing. 1 John pops the cork on the bottle. It’s a book about intimacy and love between the believer and God and between believer and believer.
We love him, because he first loved us.1st John 4:19

Luke 7:47 also expresses it clearly
This is why I tell you that her many sins have been forgiven; so she has shown great love. The one who is forgiven little loves little.”

I've had 1 John 1:1–4 explained this way. That John was talking about two forces which increase our experience of God’s love. First is the “Centripetal Force” of our Magnetic Messiah—He keeps drawing us closer to Him if we let Him. Second is the “Centrifugal Force” of Jesus—He sends us out to share His love with others.

Just as the Magnetic Messiah drew us in through concentric circles, the ripples of our love relationship with Him go out.

So, you didn't answer my question. I didn't ask whether Jesus loved John or if John loved Jesus. Let's try again...

Tell me, in the context of what you just said above, what does it mean to love?

 

[Rockson]

That verse is not an excuse to believe whatever wacko irrational nonsense that we want. All you're doing here is creating an all inclusive doctrinal trump card that you can toss down anytime someone points out that your doctrine is contradictory.

Yeah. Everybody needs to be careful of not doing that.

 

[Aeliana]

No but I'm starting a conversation.


So, you didn't answer my question. I didn't ask whether Jesus loved John or if John loved Jesus. Let's try again...

Tell me, in the context of what you just said above, what does it mean to love?

What does it mean to love? Love is so pure, so unselfish, so absolute it'll never be fully understood this side of heaven unless this happens.
But if we love one another, God abides (lives and remains) in us and His love (that love which is essentially His) is brought to completion (to its full maturity, runs its full course, is perfected) in us! 1 John 4:12.

We see God’s love in Jesus Christ. We feel his love and compassion through his Word and Spirit. God has always been love, but the world never comprehended it until Jesus came, the divine manifestation of that love.

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. John 15:13

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 1 John 4:7–8

By the way Conversations are two way streets. What is your definition of love?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'd say it very much does . Here's a 10 minute video which would reveal why it would. Forgive the use of the film Interstellar to explain this out.

I love Interstellar. However, there is no real evidence for such. Just speculation.

The limits of travel is the issue. God has designed a wondrous system that no matter where you are in "space", time remains the same.

 

[Red Baker]

Indeed, if your doctrine is true, I believe precisely and ONLY what God predestined that I would believe and have no ability whatsoever to do otherwise.

Sir, thank you for your time in responding, I want to think about what you have said before posting back, plus ~ I have other things I must get done that's on my list to do.

But, I'll take a few minutes with your last words to me.

What you believe is your own work of the flesh, God does not force any man to sin~in word or deed, in any manner you can think of. He may prevent man from doing certain thing, but never forces or even tempt man to disobey. He may allow it, but never the cause of man's disobedience.

Example would help: Please consider:

Romans 9:17,18~"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

The scriptures tell us that God indeed hardened Pharaoh's heart~yet, in what sense is this so, and God not be the author of Pharaoh's sin and destruction? And still be able to righteously judge Pharaoh in that day at the Great White Throne Judgment? Did God work in Pharaoh's heart to harden him? Or, did God just leave him to the deceitfulness of his own heart, without showing any mercy to him? Of course the latter is true. No man has right to God's mercy, we all deserve his wrath, it is of pure mercy that anyone of us are saved from sin and condemnation and have a sound, spiritual mind after Jesus Christ.

 

[Rockson]

I love Interstellar. However, there is no real evidence for such. Just speculation.

To what exactly are you meaning? Black holes? Or time dilation?

God has designed a wondrous system that no matter where you are in "space", time remains the same.

But is it not true that when one accelerates atomic cloaks from two different observer would be seeing different things? I guess my point is what is a person from a different vantage point seeing about you ?

 

[Rockson]

The scriptures tell us that God indeed hardened Pharaoh's heart~yet, in what sense is this so, and God not be the author of Pharaoh's sin and destruction?

Pharaoh sinning always came out of his own pride. He nor anyone has to walk in pride. But God did bring about his destruction but only after it was determines he deserved to be judged. But lets talk about what it means for God to harden someone. It could be said God did not harden Pharaoh's heart but yet he did depending on what one is meaning,

eg. I could say something that is going to tick you off.....or make you mad. We could say I know what I say is going to make them upset but too bad. What I need to say needs to be said! Now I can be right in saying I didn't make them mad they did so of their own choice......but it could be said I made them mad. Same thing with God. What was the horribly unjust thing God did to make Pharaoh mad.....he said the unkind thing of "Let my people go!"

You know of course I"m not really saying God was unjust to make a certain demand of him but I'm talking about how Pharaoh chose to think about it as in "How dare you come and make such a request! Now you've ticked me off or made me mad.....(or we could say hardened his heart) Well that's too bad. God was just and right and was well within his place to demand something of him......or again we could say God made him mad.....but not really it was Pharaoh who choose to respond in whatever mental state he wanted to embrace. So God made him mad (hardened him) but didn't make him mad or harden him....we just have to understand what's meant by the term.

 

[praise_yeshua]

To what exactly are you meaning? Black holes? Or time dilation?

Time dilation. We know black holes are black holes. Not much else is known of them. There are claims without evidence because it is nearly impossible to study them. I think... "we see through a dark glass".

One of man's many problems is turning speculation into fact.

But is it not true that when one accelerates atomic cloaks from two different observer would be seeing different things? I guess my point is what is a person from a different vantage point seeing about you ?

I don't see how this is an indication of time changing. I do not believe that time and space are irrevocably linked. They are relative at times but only to a certain degree. That is why I mentioned experience of travel relative to time.

If you travel to the moon. The time at the moon is the same as it is on the earth. The passage of time does not change. The experience of travel takes "time" to accomplish for us. Our experience has tainted thoughts of time with an overstatement of relativity.

Which is why I think it is crazy to believe we can use a telescope in space to see back billions of years in time relative to travel of light waves. We should admit that human beings overstate what they think they know. We know light changes speed. We think black holes can consume light. Judging things relative to our experience is a very flawed form of methodology. Yet that is exactly how we judge relativity. I do not believe in the "Big Bang" theory that supposedly established all forms of relative matter in our existence. I believe such is nothing more than wishful thinking.

I love science. I grew up in a time that created skeptical scientists. I'm a skeptic. Everytime I'm told something I start trying to prove it is wrong. However, I will accept real evidence once is presented.

 

[praise_yeshua]

By relative, I presume you meant relevant and no, it is not relevant.

No. I said what I meant. The is no need to assume I meant something I didn't write.

It is relative to the broader subject of God and our existence.

Yes, it does mean exactly that..

No. It doesn't. You're stating facts without evidence.

Yes, we do. We were created for that precise purpose.

No we do not. We prove it every day of our lives. You don't love me like God loves me. I can rely upon the love of God. I can't rely upon you to love me.

What does that even mean?

Similar is not identical. If you stop trying to correct me, you would understand what I'm saying.

Yes, well merely showing up and declaring that there are "variances" doesn't make it so.

If you want to clarify and expand on just what you mean, we may find common ground, but as stated, I have no evidence that you even know what it is that you're talking about.

Why would I want to find common ground in your mistakes? Evidence is evidence no matter if you recognize it as such or not. It might help if you stop assuming you're superior to others.