God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

[civic]

continued :

Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Leviticus 4:20,26,35
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them

Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

A Walk through Hebrews

Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.


6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

The Blood of Christ​

11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[b] eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!


15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.


16 In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”[e] 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Hebrews 10
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[b]

17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[c]

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Hebrews 12
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Hebrews 13
The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

Conclusion: The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood/life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood/life that He gave on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal/sacrifice. Notice there is no punishment anywhere above for sin.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

My posts today with all the scriptures have proven the premise of the OP is wrong- the blood atonement and resurrection are essential doctrines that must be believed to be saved. Its the very gospel message thats at stake and being challenged.

There is no compromising the gospel since believing it is the one and only way a person can be saved. Bible Basics 101. Its challenging Christs very purpose and work He accomplished through His life, death, burial and resurrection. He died, shed His blood for our sins according to the scriptures and was raised from the dead on the 3rd day- the gospel.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Larry]

I think this thread has the best discussion topic that I have ever seen on any Forum. I have to go with salvation being all about Jesus.

According to Luke the salvation that Jesus brings humanity is one that touches every dimension of their lives. It is a deliverance from every form of evil

 

[civic]

I think this thread has the best discussion topic that I have ever seen on any Forum. I have to go with salvation being all about Jesus.

According to Luke the salvation that Jesus brings humanity is one that touches every dimension of their lives. It is a deliverance from every form of evil

The gospel has been challenged and it will be defended since its the only way anyone can be saved. The blood atonement of Christ and His physical Resurrection has been challenged. Either God is True, Christ is the Way, theTruth and the Life, or its all a lie. For there is only one name by which men are saved- Jesus Christ. Acts 4:12- Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

There is only one way to be saved, one way to be in heaven with God, one gospel, one way into the kingdom of heaven, one way out of hell the broad road that leads to destruction, one way to find the narrow road. The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Lets start with the gospel/resurrection of Christ which is essential to believe as Paul tells us below. The center of the gospel message is the Resurrection of Christ

Paul defines that Gospel by which we are saved below:

Hi civic
Hi everyone

If Paul upholds that believing that Christ resurrected with a physical body is essential for God to forgive us and change our lives, then Paul is introducing a totally new element to God's mercy and grace.

• An element that God had never demanded Israel for millenia
• An element that God never implanted in the heart of Chinese or Inuit or Mayas
• An element that Jesus Himself had not demanded in the gospels

So, before going to Paul epistles, I do encourage you all to question yourselves on whether Paul invented a CRITICAL REQUIREMENT for salvation. A CRITICAL REQUIREMENT that God forgot or decided not to reveal before... not even through Jesus who had been sent precisely with a mission to save!

Did God change overnight the way he forgives?
Do we have now a God who has added one requirement.... or perhaps two or three... or ten or fifty?
Do we have now a God who is no longer the God who didn't despise a broken and contrite heart, but a God who is willing to despise it unless the sinner believes some specific doctrines?

My sacrifice, O God, is[b] a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart
you, God, will not despise. (Psalm 51:17)

 

[civic]

Hi civic
Hi everyone

If Paul upholds that believing that Christ resurrected with a physical body is essential for God to forgive us and change our lives, then Paul is introducing a totally new element to God's mercy and grace.

• An element that God had never demanded Israel for millenia
• An element that God never implanted in the heart of Chinese or Inuit or Mayas
• An element that Jesus Himself had not demanded in the gospels

So, before going to Paul epistles, I do encourage you all to question yourselves on whether Paul invented a CRITICAL REQUIREMENT for salvation. A CRITICAL REQUIREMENT that God forgot or decided not to reveal before... not even through Jesus who had been sent precisely with a mission to save!

Did God change overnight the way he forgives?
Do we have now a God who has added one requirement.... or perhaps two or three... or ten or fifty?
Do we have now a God who is no longer the God who didn't despise a broken and contrite heart, but a God who is willing to despise it unless the sinner believes some specific doctrines?

My sacrifice, O God, is[b] a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart
you, God, will not despise. (Psalm 51:17)

Paul received revelation directly from the Risen Lord and testified to that fact which the disciples affirm in Paul’s writings. Paul was specifically chosen by Jesus to preach this gospel.

2 Peter 3
Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstablepeople distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

Galatians 1
I want you to know, brothers and sisters,that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.
18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas[b]and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.
21 Then I went to Syria and Cilicia. 22 I was personally unknown to the churches of Judeathat are in Christ. 23 They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they praised God because of me.

 

[Johann]

If Paul upheld that believing that Christ resurrected with a physical body is essential for God to forgive us and change our lives, Paul would be introducing a totally new element to God's mercy and grace.

• An element that God had never demanded Israel for millenia
• An element that God never implanted in the heart of Chinese or Inuit or Mayas
• An element that Jesus Himself had not demanded in the gospels

So, before going to the versicles you quote, I do encourage you all to question yourselves on whether Paul would invent a CRITICAL REQUIREMENT for salvation. A CRITICAL REQUIREMENT that God forgot or decided not to reveal before, not even through Jesus who had been sent precisely with a mission to save!

Did God change overnight the way he forgives?
Do we have now a God who has added one requirement.... or perhaps two or three... or ten or fifty?
Do we have now a God who is no longer the God who didn't despise a broken and contrite heart, but a God who is willing to despise it unless the sinner believes some specific doctrines?

Groping at thin air-desperately want to avoid the Imperatives of Yeshua.

God's Plan Has Always Centered on Faith: While it's true that the specifics of God's salvation plan were progressively revealed, from the Old Testament through to the New, faith has always been the central requirement. In the Old Testament, salvation was never by works, but by faith, as seen in Abraham's example:

Genesis 15:6: "Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness."

This is reaffirmed in the New Testament in Romans 4:3 and Galatians 3:6, where Paul emphasizes that Abraham’s faith was counted as righteousness, even before the specifics of Christ’s atoning work were fully revealed. In this sense, the necessity of faith is consistent, but the content of that faith has become more specific with the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Jesus' Resurrection is Not a "New" Element but the Fulfillment of God's Promise: The resurrection of Jesus was not a new addition to salvation, but rather the fulfillment of the promises God made. Jesus Himself speaks of His death and resurrection as essential:

Matthew 12:40: Jesus refers to His resurrection as necessary, likening it to Jonah’s three days in the fish, indicating its central role in His mission.

John 11:25: Jesus declares, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die.” This shows that belief in Jesus' resurrection was always intended to be integral to salvation.

Paul, rather than introducing a new concept, is simply declaring the fullness of this truth:

Romans 10:9: “If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Here, Paul confirms that belief in the resurrection of Jesus is essential, not as a new requirement, but as a necessary component of the faith that was always meant to save.

God’s Consistent Requirement of Faith in His Revealed Word: Salvation has always been based on God's revealed word.

Prior to Christ, Israel's faith was in God's promises that were to be fulfilled, and after Christ, faith is in the person and work of Jesus, which was revealed in God's timing.

Romans 3:21-22: “But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.”

This shows that the revelation of Christ and His resurrection is the fulfillment of what was promised and anticipated throughout the Old Testament.

God’s Mercy is Consistent: Your argument that God changed His method of forgiveness after Christ's resurrection overlooks the fact that God’s mercy has always been extended through faith. Paul does not invent a new method of salvation but clarifies that belief in Christ, including His resurrection, is the fulfillment of what God had planned from the beginning.

Romans 5:1-2: “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.”

This is not a new requirement but the fulfillment of the way God has always worked-through faith in His promises, which are now realized in Christ.

The Gospel is Global and Universal: The fact that the gospel is now revealed to all nations, not just Israel, does not mean God has changed His nature or His plan, but rather that He has fulfilled the promise of salvation for all people, not just for one nation. This does not contradict the notion of God’s unchanging nature but demonstrates the completion of His eternal purpose in Christ.

Matthew 28:19-20: “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

Romans 16:25-26: “Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith…”

In conclusion, Paul’s teaching does not introduce a new or foreign requirement for salvation, but rather, he makes clear the ultimate revelation of God's salvation plan, centered in the person and work of Jesus Christ, including His death and resurrection. This is the fulfillment of God’s promise to save through faith, which has always been the condition for salvation.

Thanks.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I think this thread has the best discussion topic that I have ever seen on any Forum. I have to go with salvation being all about Jesus.

Your participation is very welcome, Larry!

When I think "salvation is all about Jesus" I think "salvation is all about Jesus Message (in words and in the example of his life)"
In that sense, salvation has always been about Jesus and will always be about Jesus.
In that sense, both a Sikh who steals 1000 US dollards go and a Christian Evangelical who steals 1000 USD have to seek forgiveness, be blessed with God's grace and transformed into honest men who will not steal again.

When my Christian friends think "salvation is all about Jesus", though, they think in things that are said or believed about Jesus (whether true or false, that's not the focus of the thread). For example, that He is God, that He paid a ransom to the Father to cleanse our sins, and that He resurrected with a physical, literal body.
In that sense, a Sikh who steals 1000 US dollars and the Christian Evangelical who steals 1000 USD are not treated by God the same way.
The Sikh has first to change his religion, and THEN seek God for forgiveness and transformation. Otherwise God turns his head away and let the Sikh die in his sins.

If the Christian Evangelical sees the Sikh genuinely repenting, giving back the 1000 USD (plus any compensation), kneeling before God, and being transformed into a man who will never steal again... the Christian Evangelical has no clue of what happened. Was the Sikh forgiven? Was he transformed into a new man? Is it all fake? Was the Sikh transformed by the power of Beelzebub?

So, dear Larry,
What is the value of a theology that cannot explain what happened with the Sikh who became honest?
What is the value of a theology that cannot recognize the works of the Holy Spirit in the Sikh and tell good from evil?
What is the value of years of theological and biblical studies, if we end up being puzzled for something that a 5-year-old girl would not be puzzled?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Please look at the image below.
We have a Sikh man who stole some money from the funds of his community, and a Catholic priest who did the same.
The first does not think Jesus is God, or paid God with his blood a ransom for his sins, or resurrected in a literal way.
The second does believe all that.
Both men are sincerely repented. They confessed the fraud before their communities, paid back the money plus other repairs, felt pain and are committed to being transformed by God's underserved power and love.

On which basis can anyone in this Forum say that God will turn his eyes away from the Sikh, and let him be as dishonest as he can get, and die in his sins? On which basis can anyone in this Forum say that God will do for the Catholic priest something God will not do for the Sikh?

On which basis would anyone in this Forum be willing to remain in a religion that teaches that God will despise the Sikh's broken heart and send him to eternal torment because of his religion? On which basis would anyone in this Forum preach that to others?

 

[Johann]

So, before going to Paul epistles, I do encourage you all to question yourselves on whether Paul invented a CRITICAL REQUIREMENT for salvation. A CRITICAL REQUIREMENT that God forgot or decided not to reveal before... not even through Jesus who had been sent precisely with a mission to save!

Her is a sound rebuttal to your claims.

Argument: Paul introduced a new requirement for salvation by demanding belief in the physical resurrection of Christ.
Rebuttal: Paul did not invent this requirement; belief in Christ’s resurrection is the culmination of God’s redemptive plan as foretold throughout Scripture.

Old Testament Prophecies of Resurrection:

Isaiah 53:10-11: The suffering servant will "see the light of life" after His death, pointing to the resurrection.

Psalm 16:10: "You will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, nor will you let your faithful one see decay." Peter confirms in Acts 2:25-32 that this refers to Jesus’ resurrection.

Jesus Himself Predicted His Resurrection:

Matthew 12:40: Jesus compares His death and resurrection to Jonah's three days in the fish.

John 2:19-21: Jesus says, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days," referring to His body.

Paul’s Teaching in Context:

1 Corinthians 15:3-4: Paul declares the resurrection as part of the gospel handed down to him: “Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.”

The resurrection is not a "new requirement," but the fulfillment of God’s eternal plan.

2. Argument: God never required belief in Christ’s resurrection for forgiveness in the Old Testament.

Rebuttal: While Old Testament believers did not explicitly believe in the resurrection of Christ, they placed faith in God’s promises, which pointed forward to the coming Messiah and His work.

Faith in the Promises of God:

Genesis 15:6: “Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.” Abraham’s faith was in God’s promise, which was ultimately fulfilled in Christ (see Galatians 3:16).

Hebrews 11:13: “All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance.”

The content of faith has become clearer with the full revelation of Christ, but the basis-faith in God’s promises-remains the same.

3. Argument: Jesus did not demand belief in His resurrection during His earthly ministry.

Rebuttal: During His ministry, Jesus prepared His disciples for the necessity of His death and resurrection, though full understanding came later.

Luke 24:25-27: After His resurrection, Jesus explained to the disciples how the Scriptures foretold His suffering and resurrection.

John 11:25-26: Jesus declared, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die.”

Faith in Jesus inherently includes faith in His power over death.

Even before His resurrection, Jesus pointed to its significance. Afterward, it became the cornerstone of the apostles’ preaching.

4. Argument: Did God change how He forgives, adding new requirements?

Rebuttal: God did not change His method of forgiveness; rather, the full revelation of His redemptive plan through Christ makes clear how salvation has always worked.

Hebrews 13:8: “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.” God’s character and plan are unchanging.

Romans 3:21-22: “But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.” Faith in Jesus is the culmination of

God’s unchanging plan.
Forgiveness has always been by grace through faith (e.g., Ephesians 2:8-9), and the resurrection clarifies and completes what God promised from the beginning.

5. Argument: Does God now despise a contrite heart if the sinner does not believe in specific doctrines?

Rebuttal: A contrite heart has always been acceptable to God, but genuine repentance must align with God’s revealed truth.

Psalm 51:17: “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.” This remains true, but contrition must include acknowledgment of God’s ultimate revelation in Christ.

Acts 4:12: “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

Faith in Christ is non-negotiable, as He is the fulfillment of God’s redemptive plan.
God does not despise a contrite heart, but true repentance today involves recognizing Christ’s work, including His resurrection.

6. Argument: Did Paul invent a new "critical requirement" for salvation?
Rebuttal: Paul did not invent anything; he proclaimed the fulfillment of what was promised.

Acts 17:30-31: “In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

The resurrection is proof of God’s plan, not a new invention.

Romans 10:9-10: “If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

This requirement is rooted in God’s eternal plan, not something Paul invented.

Conclusion:
The resurrection of Christ is not a "new" or "added" requirement for salvation. It is the culmination of God’s plan, progressively revealed throughout Scripture. Faith has always been central to salvation, and in the New Testament, this faith is directed specifically toward the death and resurrection of Christ as the fulfillment of God's promises. Paul did not introduce a new method of salvation but clarified and proclaimed the fulfillment of what God had always planned.

Thanks.

J.

 

[synergy]

Your participation is very welcome, Larry!

When I think "salvation is all about Jesus" I think "salvation is all about Jesus Message (in words and in the example of his life)"
In that sense, salvation has always been about Jesus and will always be about Jesus.
In that sense, both a Sikh who steals 1000 US dollards go and a Christian Evangelical who steals 1000 USD have to seek forgiveness, be blessed with God's grace and transformed into honest men who will not steal again.

When my Christian friends think "salvation is all about Jesus", though, they think in things that are said or believed about Jesus (whether true or false, that's not the focus of the thread). For example, that He is God, that He paid a ransom to the Father to cleanse our sins, and that He resurrected with a physical, literal body.
In that sense, a Sikh who steals 1000 US dollars and the Christian Evangelical who steals 1000 USD are not treated by God the same way.
The Sikh has first to change his religion, and THEN seek God for forgiveness and transformation. Otherwise God turns his head away and let the Sikh die in his sins.

If the Christian Evangelical sees the Sikh genuinely repenting, giving back the 1000 USD (plus any compensation), kneeling before God, and being transformed into a man who will never steal again... the Christian Evangelical has no clue of what happened. Was the Sikh forgiven? Was he transformed into a new man? Is it all fake? Was the Sikh transformed by the power of Beelzebub?

So, dear Larry,
What is the value of a theology that cannot explain what happened with the Sikh who became honest?
What is the value of a theology that cannot recognize the works of the Holy Spirit in the Sikh and tell good from evil?
What is the value of years of theological and biblical studies, if we end up being puzzled for something that a 5-year-old girl would not be puzzled?

Both Jews and Gentiles will be judged according to the standards that God sets, not what you set. Jesus' Gospel (Cross, Resurrection, Ascension, etc...) is paramount with God's Grace, the Law, Works, our Conscience, our Heart, our Mindfulness, etc... figuring in different proportions according to each individual's specific case. Read Rom 2:12-16.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

 

[Johann]

Please look at the image below.
We have a Sikh man who stole some money from the funds of his community, and a Catholic priest who did the same.
The first does not think Jesus is God, or paid God with his blood a ransom for his sins, or resurrected in a literal way.
The second does believe all that.
Both men are sincerely repented. They confessed the fraud before their communities, paid back the money plus other repairs, felt pain and are committed to being transformed by God's underserved power and love.

On which basis can anyone in this Forum say that God will turn his eyes away from the Sikh, and let him be as dishonest as he can get, and die in his sins? On which basis can anyone in this Forum say that God will do for the Catholic priest something God will not do for the Sikh?

On which basis would anyone in this Forum be willing to remain in a religion that teaches that God will despise the Sikh's broken heart and send him to eternal torment because of his religion? On which basis would anyone in this Forum preach that to others?

View attachment 1118

An emotional appeal won't settle anything; the real question is, "What do the Scriptures say?" (Romans 4:3).

All Have Sinned
Romans 3:23: “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”
This verse establishes the universal problem of sin and humanity's need for salvation.

2. The Penalty of Sin
Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

This verse explains the consequence of sin (death) and the solution God offers (eternal life through Christ).

3. God’s Love and Christ’s Sacrifice
Romans 5:8: “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Here we see the depth of God’s love and the provision of Jesus’ sacrifice for our sins.

4. The Way to Be Saved
Romans 10:9-10: “If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.”
These verses lay out the response needed for salvation: confessing Jesus as Lord and believing in His resurrection.

5. Assurance of Salvation
Romans 10:13: “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
This provides the assurance that anyone who calls upon Jesus in faith will be saved.

6. Peace with God
Romans 5:1: “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Salvation brings reconciliation and peace with God.

7. No Condemnation for Believers
Romans 8:1: “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”
This verse assures believers that they are free from the penalty of sin.

Summary of the Path
Recognize that you are a sinner (Romans 3:23).
Understand that sin leads to death but God offers eternal life (Romans 6:23).
Believe that Jesus died for your sins (Romans 5:8).
Confess and believe in Jesus as Lord (Romans 10:9-10).
Call on His name and be assured of salvation (Romans 10:13).
These verses provide a clear and concise outline of the gospel message and the steps to receive salvation.
If Bible believing Christianity is based on sound doctrine that can be understood, then it is reasonable.

If the Bible is truly God’s words, then it should be the most revered and cherished book in all history.

If the Bible creates more secure, well-informed, stable individuals, then it is exactly the medicine that is needed.

If Biblical Christianity is the true revelation of joy, hope, peace, and righteousness, then salvation in Christ is the only political campaign we should accept.

If God is a god of holiness, truth, righteousness, virtue, and every thing our politicians are not, then why wouldn’t we want to be saved and serve him?

If salvation is the start of the knowledge of the truth, then God was right that salvation is what this world needs most (1 Tim 2:4).

If “God has appointed a day in the which he will judge the world in righteousness” (Acts 13:31), then we all need to be saved from our unrighteousness.

Everyone Needs Salvation

If what most people see as Christianity is true, then why would anyone want to be saved. We need better representation. We need the right Bible rightly divided presented with the right heart.

There are a lot of fakes and flukes that call themselves Christianity, but there is only one Biblical Christianity. It requires you rightly divide the word of truth. You need to find it out and be fully persuaded in your own mind (Rom 14:5).

Every reason not to be saved is a lie. Let God be true and every man a liar (Rom 3:4).

The truth is that there will be a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to Paul’s gospel (Rom 2:16). Without salvation the world will perish. That Christ died for your sins, and resurrected from the dead so that he could freely give you grace, righteousness, and eternal life is the gospel that saves.

If you have trusted the power of God unto salvation, which is the gospel, then you have received the love of the truth and know why everyone should be saved in Christ.


Thanks

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Let's keep reviewing what Jesus taught about forgiveness. This is an eloquent story that we should review in a spirit of prayer.

“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’​

“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’​

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.” (Luke 18:10-14)​

Which of the two men was more likely to have read the Scriptures in depth?
Which of the two was more likely to be able to quote them and feel able to teach the other?

Jesus told the story to focus on humbleness, as the central issue for being justified before God.
The tax collector recognized himself a sinner in need of God's mercy. The Pharisee did not.

You all know that we are justified by faith. So, what is FAITH?
Is faith the adherence to doctrines like Jesus deity, blood atonement and physical resurrection?
Or is it faith the trust on Jesus teachings on the power of God to forgive our sins and heal our life?

Again, Jesus could have told the story differently: he could have said that the tax collector believed in his deity, or blood atonement, or resurrection (or that of a Messiah to come) while the Pharisee did not.
But that's not the story Jesus told... Why?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

An emotional appeal won't settle anything; the real question is, "What do the Scriptures say?" (Romans 4:3).

This is not just an "emotional appeal", but a life-or-death scenario that happens everyday.
Right now, as you read my post, thousands of Sikhs and Catholics who have sinned are seeking forgiveness


All the verses you are quoting in your post come from the Book of Romans.
If your study of the Book of Romans leads you to think that God will not forgive the Sikh..- then, what was the study of the Epistle to the Romans good for? It would be much better not to have read it at all !

In regards to the scenario I am presenting with the Sikh and Catholic men, a 5-year-old girl would give an answer in a second: "God will forgive both men, because God is good and He forgives those who feel sorry for having done a bad thing. "
Period.
Problem solved. Next thing! For example, going to the park with the dog.

An atheist, like my wife, would answer: "I don't believe in an afterlife, but it is obvious for me that if there were an afterlife, none of these two persons would deserve to be tortured forever due to their religious convictions".
Period.
Problem solved. Next thing! For example, cooking rice for both of us.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

An emotional appeal won't settle anything; the real question is, "What do the Scriptures say?" (Romans 4:3).

By the way, I am quoting Scripture... and will keep quoting it more.
Furthermore, I am quoting texts that address directly the topic of forgiveness, and most of them directly from the lips of Jesus.

 

[synergy]

Let's keep reviewing what Jesus taught about forgiveness. This is an eloquent story that we should review in a spirit of prayer.

“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’​

“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’​

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.” (Luke 18:10-14)​

Which of the two men was more likely to have read the Scriptures in depth?
Which of the two was more likely to be able to quote them and feel able to teach the other?

Jesus told the story to focus on humbleness, as the central issue for being justified before God.
The tax collector recognized himself a sinner in need of God's mercy. The Pharisee did not.

You all know that we are justified by faith. So, what is FAITH?
Is faith the adherence to doctrines like Jesus deity, blood atonement and physical resurrection?
Or is it faith the trust on Jesus teachings on the power of God to forgive our sins and heal our life?

Again, Jesus could have told the story differently: he could have said that the tax collector believed in his deity, or blood atonement, or resurrection (or that of a Messiah to come) while the Pharisee did not.
But that's not the story Jesus told... Why?

View attachment 1119

Excellent verses that focus specifically on what man must do to receive justification from God. Here Jesus has us focusing directly on our actions to the offer of forgiveness that God graciously offers to everyone.

Now, can we place Allah as the God who is doing the offering? Let's see. Allah continues to promote the cutting of people's throats in the Quran. Can you see Allah in that picture painted by Luke 18:10-14? The answer is obvious.

I see that the Islam in you is trying to do everything it can to rebuke the offer of Salvation that every man is offered by God because of the Cross, Resurrection, and Ascencion of our Lord Jesus Christ. Sorry, that Islamization attempt fell flat on its face again.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The truth is that there will be a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to Paul’s gospel (Rom 2:16). Without salvation the world will perish. That Christ died for your sins, and resurrected from the dead so that he could freely give you grace, righteousness, and eternal life is the gospel that saves.

I respect those beliefs, my friend. I do.
I just don't want you to preach that God demands from the Sikh who stole the 1000 USD to believe those things in order to forgive him.

If you come to say:

"Although I believe in Jesus deity, blood atonement and physicial resurrection, I do believe God forgives the repented Sikh", then we are all fine.

 

[synergy]

I respect those beliefs, my friend. I do.
I just don't want you to preach that God demands from the Sikh who stole the 1000 USD to believe those things in order to forgive him.

If you come to say:

"Although I believe in Jesus deity, blood atonement and physicial resurrection, I do believe God forgives the repented Sikh", then we are all fine.

It's not what we say. It's what Jesus and His Apostles say, as recorded in the Bible. See my post below:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/gods-grace-to-forgive-and-transform-is-not-conditioned-to-recognizing-jesus-deity-blood-atonement-or-physical-resurrection.2218/post-130419

 

[Johann]

Let's keep reviewing what Jesus taught about forgiveness. This is an eloquent story that we should review in a spirit of prayer.

“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’​

“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’​

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.” (Luke 18:10-14)​

Which of the two men was more likely to have read the Scriptures in depth?
Which of the two was more likely to be able to quote them and feel able to teach the other?

Jesus told the story to focus on humbleness, as the central issue for being justified before God.
The tax collector recognized himself a sinner in need of God's mercy. The Pharisee did not.

You all know that we are justified by faith. So, what is FAITH?
Is faith the adherence to doctrines like Jesus deity, blood atonement and physical resurrection?
Or is it faith the trust on Jesus teachings on the power of God to forgive our sins and heal our life?

Again, Jesus could have told the story differently: he could have said that the tax collector believed in his deity, or blood atonement, or resurrection (or that of a Messiah to come) while the Pharisee did not.
But that's not the story Jesus told... Why?

View attachment 1119

All the verses you are quoting in your post come from the Book of Romans.
If your study of the Book of Romans leads you to think that God will not forgive the Sikh..- then, what was the study of the Epistle to the Romans good for? It would be much better not to have read it at all !

A 5-year-old girl would give an answer in a second: "God will forgive both men, because God is good and He forgives those who feel sorry for having done a bad thing. "
Period.
Problem solved. Next thing! For example, going to the park with the dog.

An atheist, like my wife, would answer: "I don't believe in an afterlife, but it is obvious for me that if there were an afterlife, none of these two persons would deserve to be tortured due to their religious convictions".
Period.
Problem solved. Next thing! For example, cooking rice for both of us.

Your reaction reveals that this debate was lost before it even began. Scripture reminds us, “A wise man listens to advice, but a fool gives full vent to his spirit” (Proverbs 12:15; Proverbs 29:11). Let’s focus on what the Word of God says rather than emotional responses.


Argument: If Romans leads one to believe that God will not forgive a Sikh, it’s better not to have read it.

Rebuttal: This assumes that understanding Scripture is optional and dismisses the necessity of the gospel for salvation. Romans was written to reveal God's plan of salvation through Jesus Christ, not to affirm human assumptions about God's forgiveness.

Romans 1:16: “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.” The gospel, not general remorse, is the means by which God saves.

Romans 10:9-10: “If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Faith in Jesus Christ, not adherence to any other religious system, is necessary for salvation.
The study of Romans is invaluable because it illuminates the way to reconciliation with God, which is through Christ alone.

2. Argument: A 5-year-old would conclude that God forgives anyone who feels sorry, no further conditions needed.

Rebuttal: While a childlike simplicity in faith is commended (Matthew 18:3), salvation is not based on subjective feelings of sorrow but on faith in Jesus Christ as revealed in Scripture.!!

John 14:6: “Jesus answered, ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’” The exclusivity of Jesus as the way to God is clear.

Acts 4:12: “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

Sorrow alone does not save; salvation comes through Jesus.
Even a 5-year-old, with proper teaching, can grasp the necessity of Jesus' atoning work.

3. Argument: An atheist would say that no one deserves eternal punishment for their religious convictions.
Rebuttal: This argument rejects the reality of sin, God’s justice, and the necessity of Christ’s sacrifice. The Bible teaches that all humanity is guilty before God and in need of salvation.

Romans 3:10-12: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Sin carries the penalty of eternal separation from God, which Christ bore for us.
Eternal punishment is not about religious convictions but about sin and rejection of God’s provision for salvation through Christ.

4. Argument: Simplistic moral conclusions suffice; deeper study is unnecessary.
Rebuttal: The Bible urges believers to study diligently to understand and rightly handle God’s Word.

2 Timothy 2:15: “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.”

Romans 10:17: “Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.”

Study of Scripture is essential for understanding the truth about salvation.
Reducing God’s plan to human reasoning denies the depth and wisdom of His revealed Word (Isaiah 55:8-9).

5. Argument: God forgives everyone simply because He is good.
Rebuttal: God is indeed good, but His goodness includes His justice and holiness. Forgiveness is offered through Christ, not as a blanket statement independent of repentance and faith.

Psalm 7:11: “God is a righteous judge, a God who displays his wrath every day.”

God’s goodness does not negate His justice.

John 3:16-18: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”

God’s forgiveness is rooted in the atoning work of Christ, not in a vague idea of divine benevolence.

Conclusion:
You argument disregards the specific revelation of God’s plan for salvation through Christ and relies on subjective reasoning rather than Scriptural truth. Romans and the rest of Scripture emphasize that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ, not through remorse, religious affiliation, or philosophical reasoning. The exclusivity of Christ is central to the gospel message, and it is through Him alone that forgiveness and eternal life are granted.

Concede @Pancho Frijoles you have lost this debate.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Excellent verses that focus specifically on what man must do to receive justification from God. Here Jesus has us focusing directly on our actions to the offer of forgiveness that God graciously offers to everyone.

What man must do, according to the story of the tax collector and the Pharisee, is to recognize our own smallness, impurity, incapacity, and recognize God's power to forgive.
Those are the actions.
The offer of God, as we can read in the parable, does not include the payment of a ransom with blood.

Jesus had a golden opportunity to explain how the blood atonement works for the tax collector to get justified.
He did not.