PapaLandShark
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An important question dealt with by John MacArthur
For Whom did Christ die?
- Thread starter PapaLandShark
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PapaLandShark
Active Member
And I say he gets it all right enough. For what it's worth. 
Diserner
Active Member
And I say he gets it all right enough. For what it's worth.
It's worth its weight in gold.
Johann
Active Member
Love ol' Mac.And I say he gets it all right enough. For what it's worth.
Johann.
Steven
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jeremiah1five
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Christ died for the children of Israel:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal. 4:4–5.
The animal sacrifices were offered for the sins of the children of Israel in covenant with God and since Scripture cannot be broken Jesus Christ was sent and sacrificed for the sins of the children of Israel as Saul teaches correctly.
As rabbi and Pharisee he would teach no other gospel.
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal. 4:4–5.
The animal sacrifices were offered for the sins of the children of Israel in covenant with God and since Scripture cannot be broken Jesus Christ was sent and sacrificed for the sins of the children of Israel as Saul teaches correctly.
As rabbi and Pharisee he would teach no other gospel.
atpollard
Active Member
... of whom I am the chiefest. [I read that somewhere]
Handaan
Active Member
I think it was that Paul guy, You know the one that wrote most of the new testament. I heard he fell off of his High Horse on his way to Damascus to round up some christians.... of whom I am the chiefest. [I read that somewhere]
atpollard
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civic
Active Member
Yep the Pharisee under the law , his former life as the chief of sinners
Typical ripping it from its context. The chief of sinners refers to his killing of Christian’s in his past. The context below for this who don’t want to abuse Gods grace and boast in their sin.
“Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.”
And worst of all they have Paul contradicting his rebuking of those who practice sin in the same passage. They make Paul a schizophrenic. A double talker who speaks out of both sides of his mouth whom James says is unstable in all his ways. A religious hypocrite like the Pharisees Jesus and Paul rebuke in many places. They make Grace a license to sin.
“8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine”
hope this helps !!!
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civic
Active Member
Paul pleads Gods mercy not His justice as the CHIEF of all sinners ! Notice he describes his past life.
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
2 Peter 3:9 and 2 Tim 2:20-21.In Ephesians 2:3-5 we see that we “were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy […] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)” – in other words, we were vessels of wrath but became vessels of mercy
conclusion: “Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy” (Matthew 5:7). Romans 11:30notes, “You who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy.” Paul shared that his ministry was given to him by God’s mercy (2 Corinthians 4:1). He also saw his salvation as an act of God’s mercy: “I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief” (1 Timothy 1:13). Our salvation is also called an act of God’s mercy: “He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy” (Titus 3:5). As Peter expressed it, “In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3).
hope this helps !!!
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
2 Peter 3:9 and 2 Tim 2:20-21.In Ephesians 2:3-5 we see that we “were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy […] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)” – in other words, we were vessels of wrath but became vessels of mercy
conclusion: “Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy” (Matthew 5:7). Romans 11:30notes, “You who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy.” Paul shared that his ministry was given to him by God’s mercy (2 Corinthians 4:1). He also saw his salvation as an act of God’s mercy: “I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief” (1 Timothy 1:13). Our salvation is also called an act of God’s mercy: “He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy” (Titus 3:5). As Peter expressed it, “In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3).
hope this helps !!!
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Jesus Christ did not come to destroy or change the Law. Jesus Christ came to fulfill the Law.
The high priest is instructed to offer sacrifices to and for the children of Israel, to atone for the sins of the children of Israel.
Jesus Christ as High Priest fulfilled the Law and offered sacrifice of Himself UNDER THE LAW to and for the children of Israel.
Christ, as High Priest, died for the children of Israel.
The high priest is instructed to offer sacrifices to and for the children of Israel, to atone for the sins of the children of Israel.
Jesus Christ as High Priest fulfilled the Law and offered sacrifice of Himself UNDER THE LAW to and for the children of Israel.
Christ, as High Priest, died for the children of Israel.
Joe
Active Member
Yes, He did. And He died for everyone else too!
Yes, he died on a cross to redeem those under the Law, for they were under the curse of the Law. The Gentiles were not under the Mosaic Law. We were under the law of sin and you die. So, no matter if you were Jew or Gentile, death held both in its grasp in hell.
Which is better off: the dead Jew in hell or the Gentile in hell?
Did Jesus sacrifice his life for Jews only or for everyone?
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. (Joh 3:16-17)
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. (1Ti 2:3-7)
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. (Heb 2:9)
The New Covenant of God itself includes us Gentiles, even though He was silent about it in Jeremiah, He certainly wasn't silent about including to save us Gentiles through other prophecies. The promise to Abraham supersedes the Law. We have the same Father since He has given us the same Spirit who affirms we are in-fact the children of God. There is no longer Jew and Gentile in Christ Jesus, but one new man ransomed by the blood of Jesus Christ, forgiven, made new by the same Spirit of God, and all shall be 100% conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.
The physical descendants of Abraham were privileged and given honor by God to bear the fruit of the Kingdom of God, but they consistently rejected, beat, and killed the prophets time and time again, and eventually killed the Lord Himself; because of this rejection, Jesus said, "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit."
And it is easy to see the prophecy of our Lord is true. By God's grace, Gentiles have embraced Jesus Christ and bear the fruit of God's rule in our hearts. Gentiles have been the servants of the Lord taking His salvation to the nations. And God has united us with Himself, just as much as the Jews. We share of the same Root by the loving mercy of God!
The blood of Jesus ransoms both Jew and Gentile, everyone.
God Bless
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Joe, the Bible does not teach Universalism. There are only two races on the planet: Jew and Gentile (non-Jew.)
If Jesus died for everyone, then everyone is saved and will be with God.
Jonah says, "Salvation is OF THE LORD." Salvation is the prerogative of God, not men. There is no such thing as "accept Jesus into your heart" which is what you've been taught. But that makes men in control of salvation. Either Jesus died and actually saved someone THAT DAY, or as is commonly believed. Jesus died and ONLY made salvation POSSIBLE if one would only later believe. You need to use your head and follow Scripture.
God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew and his Hebrew seed. This covenant is described and found in Genesis 12, 15, and 17. Now consider what God says here:
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Genesis 17:7.
The first thing to understand is Abram is descendant of Eber, from which we get the name "Hebrew."
13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; Genesis 14:13.
All God is saying here is that Abram is descendant from "Eber" who is named in Genesis 11:10-26.
Another thing to understand is Abram married his half-sister, Sarai. The explanation occurs when Abraham is speaking to Abimelech, the king of Gerar. Abraham had told the king that Sarah was his sister to protect himself, and after the truth was revealed, he clarified their actual relation:
12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. Genesis 20:12.
Do you understand? So, what does this mean? They shared the same father (Terah). They had different mothers. Both are descendant from Eber. They are both "Hebrew" (Eber.) This means Isaac, their child (by Sarah, Ishmael is born from Hagar who was Egyptian, making Ishmael Half-Hebrew, half-Egyptian), is born from two Hebrew parents. Isaac, whom Abraham sent his servant (identified as Eliezer of Damascus) with a solemn oath. Abraham insisted that Isaac must not marry a woman from the Canaanites, but rather someone from Abraham's own kindred (Genesis 24.) So, Jacob was also born of two Hebrew parents (Isaac and Rebekah.) When Abram/Abraham died the promises made to Abraham was inherited by Isaac, which was a son promised by God as an heir (Genesis 15:4.) When Isaac died the promises were then inherited by Jacob. Jacob had twelve sons (from four wives.) When Jacob died the inheritance went to Jacob (not Esau, his brother.) Later, when the Hebrews went to live in Egypt (thanks to Joseph), 70 souls - Hebrew souls - went down to Egypt to live there. In time the Hebrews were made into slaves The very first time the Bible mentions that Abraham's descendants would be enslaved is during a vision God gave to Abraham (then called Abram). God told him "of a surety" (with absolute certainty) that his offspring would be mistreated in a foreign land (Genesis 15:13, and further explained in Exodus 1.
The actual historical account of the Hebrews being forced into slavery begins in the first chapter of Exodus. This happened long after Joseph and his generation had died, when a new Egyptian king (Pharaoh) came to power.
Keeping His promise, God delivered the Hebrew people (descendants of Jacob) from slavery and led them in the desert for a time and soon God, through Moses, makes a covenant with the offspring of Jacob, which people are in the millions now, a covenant called the Mosaic Covenant. This covenant comes in three parts: Social Law, Moral Law, Ceremonial Law. The Ceremonial Law is my focus here. The Ceremonial Law came with God instructing the building of a Tabernacle, in which sacrifices and worship are performed by the Hebrew people. God instructed the slaying of an animal for the purpose of atoning the sins of the Hebrew people for one year (Yom Kippur) until they come together again after that one year to sacrifice an animal again to atone for the sins of the Hebrew people. This was perpetual and it was temporary. But also notice these sacrifices did not include atonement for non-Hebrew Gentiles. Gentiles were not in the Mosaic Covenant and "under the Law" of God. I will continue this in my next response below.
First, understand God's Law was NOT a curse to the Hebrew people. It was a blessing and a grace. God delivered the Hebrews from Egyptian bondage and later gave them His Law in which to live by otherwise everyone would be leaning on their own understanding in the vanity of their minds. There would be chaos. What WAS a curse was the Hebrew people trying to attain unto righteousness (right living) which again would only be temporary and a status requiring another sacrifice in one year and another in another year, etc. The Law did not allow a person to attain righteousness because as we find later Jesus says, "if you break one Law you've broken all laws." And breaking one "jot" or "tittle" of the required death to pay the penalty for your sin.
Yes, for both Jew and Gentile death held both in its grip (which is why a sacrifice must be made to atone - pay the penalty) but God was only concerned with the children of Israel - NOT Gentiles. Only the Hebrews had the Law of God, and their sacrifices were made every New Year (Yom Kippur) perpetually, and temporarily. The Ceremonial Law taught that there needed to be a substitute in which the sins of the people would be 'placed' upon the sacrifice and that sacrifice died in the place of the Hebrew people who were under its precincts, under the (God's) Law.
You do know that under the Law God gave to the Hebrew people and the promises God made to this people required a substitutionary sacrifice to be made yearly to "cover" the sins of the Hebrew people, right? The high priest would "lay his hands" on the sacrifice, transfer the sins of the people, and then slay that animal because sins means death. The animal was killed as prescribed by God's Law and every year the Hebrews would go through this process and every year for centuries this was done until God would send His Lamb, His sacrifice, who would die to atone finally and eternally for the sins of the Hebrew people, and this is what Jesus did. Like the animal, He died for the sins of the Hebrew people 'once and for all' (the Hebrews.)
You tell me. Did the high priest at any time leave Israel and go to the Gentiles and offer sacrifices for their sins? No, he didn't. God's Law was given to the children of Israel (Jacob) and only they were under its precepts.
IF you're going to say Jesus died for the Hebrew people under the Law AND FOR GENTILES then you are teaching Jesus changed the Law and by definition any change in the Law would destroy the Law, but Jesus said:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17–19.
I'm going to presume you are a true born-again Christian, and if you are, then verse 19 applies to you and you "are least in the kingdom of God) because you are teaching Jesus broken the Law in order to ADD Gentiles into the Mosaic Covenant and to ADD Gentiles into the atonement that God gave ONLY to the Hebrew people and for their living as the people of God. You see, Joe, Gentiles were never under the Law and thus, were never under the atonement Jesus made specifically for the Hebrew people because they were under the Law and under its precepts - especially where the Ceremonial Law required a sacrifice for sin.
If the 39 "books" of the Hebrew Scripture (Old Testament Law, Psalms, and Prophets) was written to and for the Hebrew people (children of Israel), then the letters in which are in the Bible today are also to and for the Hebrew people. They were authored by men who were Jewish and they wrote to their fellow Jews and especially to born-again Christians who were all Jewish, too, and these letters explained, discussed, and generally taught the Jewish Christians to whom their letters were written in order to teach them - FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT - what the New Covenant was all about. Now, if Jesus died for the Hebrew people ONLY, then words like "God so loved the world" would mean the "world of Jews" because in Greek that's what they word in context identifies. If you're going to say the "world" means Gentiles, too, then you are teaching Jesus changed the Law and changing the Law destroys the Law, do you understand? But if you're STILL going to say "the world" means Gentiles then here are some things to consider.
1. The ministry of the high priest under the Law required only two things he must do in discharging his office. He must pray for the people of God and offer sacrifices for the people of God. That's basically it.
2. In John 17 we see Jesus preparing to sacrifice Himself. John 17 is the prayer as High Priest Jesus does before offering Himself as sacrifice. In this prayer (chapter 17) Jesus sanctifies Himself (John 17:1-5) and prays for Himself.
Verse 6 and going forward Jesus prays for the twelve disciples (John 17:6-19.) Then in verse 20 Jesus prays for those who will be saved by their preaching in the future. These are a people that Jesus identifies as "afar off" who Peter understands as Jews in the future - including mixed-race Jews.
39 For the promise is unto you (Jews), and to your children (Jews), and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:39.
Saul says the same thing:
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Ephesians 2:12–13.
3. Jesus as High Priest DOES NOT pray for the "world" (Gentiles.)
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. John 17:9.
Jesus, as High Priest, prays for Himself, prays for the twelve, and for those whom the Lord shall call (Ephesians 2:13), But Jesus DOES NOT pray for "the world." If Gentiles were sanctified and part of Jesus' sacrifice, the time to pray for the world would be right here in John 17 right before He sacrifices Himself. But Jesus does not pray "for the world" because the world are not under the Law and are not part of the Yom Kippur sacrifices the Jews made under the Law for themselves. So, in reality, the "world" (of Gentiles) are without a prayer "in the world." Further...God says:
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 1 John 2:15–16.
If "the world" (Gentiles) have been atoned along with Israel, and their sins atoned along with Israel, why doesn't God the Father "love" the world? If Gentiles "of the world" are atoned with Israel then they are brethren with Israel but God says "DON'T love them!!" "If anyone loves "the world" the love of the Father is not in/with them. What's going on here? I thought "God so loved the world" (of Gentiles), but here it says He doesn't love the world (of Gentiles.) And don't try to explain it away and say, "God is talking about 'worldly' brethren/Christians." No, that's not what John is saying. So, how do you reconcile "God so loved the world (of Gentiles)" but 1 John 2:15-16 says, "God does not love the world (of Gentiles.)" How do you reconcile these two contradictions? You resolve this by going back to the Law of Moses and the Ceremonial Law instructing sacrifices. The animal the high priest sacrificed and whose blood was sprinkled upon the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant built by Jews for Jews was not and did not atone for non-Hebrew Gentiles, then the Gentiles (the world) are without a prayer and without atonement because they were NEVER under the Law of sacrifices God gave to Israel.
Saul wrote to Timothy who was half-Jew and half-Greek. The "all men" refer to ALL ISRAEL as Saul reminds us in this passage:
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:26–27.
What covenant is that? Only this one:
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jeremiah 31:31.
The New Covenant is between God and the House of Israel (ten northern kingdom tribes) and the House of Judah (two southern kingdom tribes.) There are NO GENTILES in this covenant. And when Jesus died substituting the animal that would have been sacrificed for Israel's sins, Jesus died in the place of the animal but His sacrifice was once and for all Jews and this is why rabbi and Pharisee, Saul, says: "And ALL Israel shall be saved!"
As Jesus once said to the religious leaders, "ye do err and do not know the Scripture - or the power of God!"
Your Gentile-biased theology fails to come to the knowledge of the truth.
God wasn't "silent" about Gentiles. Gentiles were never under the Law and Jesus died for ONLY those under the Law as Saul clearly states:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:4–5.
Don't add to the Bible. There is no salvation covenant between God and Gentiles anywhere in the Bible. NONE.
It doesn't matter what Israel did. Salvation is OF THE LORD. Jesus was sent to atone finally and eternally for the children of Israel under the Law. God does not break His promises. The kingdom of God remains with Israel. Jesus was promised to Israel and to Israel He came. I suggest you drop those false Constantinian Gentile theology books you read - I used to read them too - and look at Scripture. Let the Word of God tell you what to believer, don't tell the Word of God what to say. You quote the Jeremiah prophecy of a New Covenant but then you infect the truth with false understanding. All the New Covenant is, is the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Christ. The Jeremiah prophecy of a New Covenant says, [God] "forgives Israel" but doesn't contain a mechanism for that forgiveness. It merely says the House of Israel and Judah "are forgiven."
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the LORD:
For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jeremiah 31:34.
How does God accomplish this? Through the Ceremonial Law of sacrifices. There were no Gentiles at Jesus' last Passover. Just thirteen Jewish men celebrating and observing a Jewish Holy Day. One more thing you fail to understand...the Holy Spirit was promised (by Joel) to Israel. Are you going to add Gentiles where Gentiles do not exist? There are no Gentiles in any of the three Hebrew covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, and New.) If you are honest with Scripture, you will find I am telling you the truth. There is a great deal missing from your belief system. I used to believe the garbage you believe but the Lord wouldn't allow one of His kids to walk around spewing false teaching. It took God centuries to get to the point of sending His own Son to deal with the sin issue. Each covenant builds on the covenant that came before. God saves through covenant. God saves based on His promise TO save. But I challenge you now...show me a covenant in the Old Testament between God and non-Hebrew Gentiles. And while you're at it, tell me the name of the Gentile He makes covenant with. We have a covenant, and the name God made covenant with: Abraham. If Gentiles are supposed to be saved, then show me the covenant through which God saves Gentiles and win the argument. Show me the Scripture in the Old Testament where God promises His Spirit to Gentiles. A person cannot be saved without the Holy Spirit, right? So, show me where God promised His Spirit to Gentiles.
Tell me, who are the Samaritans?
Without using any reference tell me from memory who the Samaritans are.
I'll wait.
