Ephesians 2:8 salvation is the gift

[Red Baker]

So lets with an open mind, without presuppositions read what the Bible says about the Son and His pre existence as the Son in Scripture. Here are many passages which confirm He is the Eternal Son who created all things and was together with the Father before creation as the Son

First, I desire for you to practice what you are here preaching ~You said: "So lets with an open mind, without presuppositions read what the Bible says about the Son and His pre existence as the Son in Scripture."

So, I must ask you why did you not even attempted to address these following points:

And we ask~"How can eternal generation of the Son of God be accepted as biblical truth, and for those still holding such doctrine still contend that Jesus Christ is self-existence and independent"? We shall prove that this is an impossibility and a contradiction of terms used in the eternal Sonship defense.

Also:

Reason #1~The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer. I'm putting my next statement this in a box quote to emphasize its important and to isolate it so one can fully ponder the words carefully and think on them before responding:

Please consider carefully: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time ~ Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation ~ therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity ~ is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.

Again:

Question #3~ "What part of Jesus Christ was derived from God?"

Surely not his Divine Nature! if One God can be derived, why not many? Many Mighty Gods and Everlasting Fathers, (there not many, but ONE, revealed to us as three, according to their work in the affairs of creation, and the salvation of the elect seed of Jesus Christ) many first Causes, and last End of all things! The Eternal Spirit of God is not capable of diminution or divisibility, that is an impossibility. This would be going against what his word teaches us, that we should have no other gods before Him.

I'm going to address each scripture you present and I desire you to show the same respect to what I have presented to you~ so far you have not.

John 17:1, 5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Notice above its the Son with the Father sharing the same glory together with Hm before creation, before the world came into existence. The same below. The Word who was God is the Son. Scripture interprets scripture. Hermenuetics 101.

civic, this is not difficult ~Jesus Christ in his Divinity was God, and the glory of the Godhead and its fulness fully dwelt IN HIM as God manifest in human flesh. There were NOT two separate God's in Genesis 1:1 but ONE.

Deuteronomy 6:4​

“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:”

Philippians 2:6​

“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:”

Colossians 2:9​

“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”

This can only be true, if he was the I AM THAT I AM, without any qualifications. So, yes before Christ took on the form of servant, he was the Word in the beginning that was God, who spoke the worlds into existence. As a Son, he was praying unto His father who is a Spirit that lives in eternity.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son).

This is true of Christ's Divinity, being the the everlasting father of all things! Isaiah 9:6 All things were created by him, and for him.

Colossians 1:16,17​

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

This is "only" true if we understand that the God of Genesis 1:1 is Jesus Christ in his Divinity as the eternal God, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and end of all things.

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9;You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

And Here Jesus who is both God and man says that the Father sent the Son. This shows the Son existing before becoming man.

John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

John tells us the same below:

1 John 4:9
This is how God’s love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him.

1 John 4:10
10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.


And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.

As does Paul below:

Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh,

Galatians 4:4-5
But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, / to redeem those under the law, that we might receive our adoption as sons.

We have already address this, once ~ Again, however God sent Jesus into the world, He sent His disciples the same way (John 17:18)! However God sent His Son, He sent His servants the same way before Him (Matthew 21:33-39). When was John the Baptist sent from God (John 1:6)? Before or after he was born to Elisabeth? So was Jesus sent from God. Isaiah illustrates how a man is sent by God – called to service (Isaiah 6:8; Romans 10:15). The Son God sent forth to redeem was made of a woman (Gal 4:4-5). Note the grammar!

 

[civic]

My last on this because you either cannot or will not see what I see.

I see the 2nd person of the Trinity who started out as the Word, and eventually was picked, chosen, or volunteered to come to earth as a human being to straighten out the mess mankind was making of things. He did not lose all of His divine attributes
as were exampled in the Holy Bible but without him as a sacrifice we would still be killing and sacrificing animals.

There is no reason that this Spirit who was chosen or volunteered for the job had to carry the title Son because there is no record the Father was ever called Father pre creation.

If that makes me a heretic.... then Ill be joining the likes of Calvin in eternity.

Vaya con Dios....

The Trinity is eternal - Father, Son, Holy Spirit

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

Here are some more scriptures you have presented in your defense of the Eternal Sonship position.

civic, Jesus Christ was indeed before not only John the Baptist, but before Abraham, and Adam in his Divinity as the God of Genesis 1:1. What's so difficult concerning this truth? But, came after all three according to his Sonship as the only begotten Son of God ~ begotten in the manner in which Luke recorded his conception, begotten in time around two thousand years ago, according to God's own testimony from the holy scriptures.

Luke 1:26-37~"And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. For with God nothing shall be impossible."

civic, in the same manner as Elisabeth conceived, so did Mary, Jesus' mother, only Mary's son was the Son of God; conceived in the manner in which he was conceived made him the "ONLY " begotten Son of God........conceived in TIME, not from eternity, which would deny Jesus' Divinity as being self-existent as the Mighty God, the everlasting Father of all things. I do not think you truly desire to teach such a doctrine, yet do so, by using terms that you cannot explain.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.

Let's look at John 1:13 as it is in the KJV:

John 3:13​

“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Notice the grammar very carefully. Jesus said even the Son of man which is IN heaven, even though talking to Nicodemus in the earth! How could this be civic? Jesus was a complex person, fully man (speaking to Nicodemus) and fully God, in heaven at the time he was speaking to Nicodemus! This could only be true, if Jesus was God in his Divinity ~ the God of Genesis 1:1! John 3:13 is a powerful verse supporting the truth that Jesus was God, and never cease to be God who is a Spirit that lives in eternity. THE mystery of mysteries! With God, nothing is impossible.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.

Basically covered this twice already.

We have already address this, once ~ Again, however God sent Jesus into the world, He sent His disciples the same way (John 17:18)! However God sent His Son, He sent His servants the same way before Him (Matthew 21:33-39). When was John the Baptist sent from God (John 1:6)? Before or after he was born to Elisabeth? So was Jesus sent from God. Isaiah illustrates how a man is sent by God – called to service (Isaiah 6:8; Romans 10:15). The Son God sent forth to redeem was made of a woman (Gal 4:4-5). Note the grammar!

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."

Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.

Not as a person, but as God, who is a Spirit..... period! Yes, we would agree as the ETERNAL GOD without qualifications if you would just add those two words!

I believe this covers all of the scriptures you presented, some of which are saying the same things, so we forbear using every single scripture you gave in your defense. If you think I missed one, just point it out and I will address it.

Now, I would love to hear from you concerning some of my points that I sent to you again yesterday.

Remember, it is one thing to believe a doctrine, but it is so much harder to defend the same with scriptures, it take much more knowledge and understanding to defend than to say I believe this or that. We will add ~if one does not have the truth on a particular doctrine, then it is impossible to defend what a person said he believes in. A person may be able to stonewall another person, but not him that holding to the truth of the word of God, which we have concerning the Sonship of Jesus Christ.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

The Trinity is eternal - Father, Son, Holy Spirit

Only according to God's eternal purposes, and in no other sense.

 

[Jim]

@civic

Only according to God's eternal purposes, and in no other sense.

What of God's purposes besides God's eternal purposes are there? What are you actually saying there? Examples?

 

[Jim]

@Red Baker,
First, let me say that I don't agree with the eternal "sonship" of Jesus. But I do believe that God is three distinct and different divine beings. If Scripture did not portray Jesus as both distinct from the Father and yet as himself God in the flesh, the question of the Trinity may never have arisen. But Jesus did that. The same is true to a somewhat lesser extent of the Bible’s portrayal of the Holy Spirit as a divine person. There are more than a few passages in the NT that speak of Jesus now being seated at the right hand of God. What does that mean?

 

[civic]

@civic




Not as a person, but as God, who is a Spirit..... period! Yes, we would agree as the ETERNAL GOD without qualifications if you would just add those two words!

So you deny the Eternal 3 Divine Persons of the Trinity.

Who became Incarnate ?

 

[civic]

@civic

Only according to God's eternal purposes, and in no other sense.

No thats incorrect as to the question. Who are the Eternal 3 Persons of the Trinity ?

You are basically saying there was no Trinity before the Incarnation and there were no Persons within the Godhead before the Incarnation.

 

[civic]

My suggestion for anyone like @Red Baker and others who say the Son/Father did not exist before the Incarnation to read this article where the Greek N.T. and Grammar show the Son/Father existed for all eternity.

When did Jesus becore the Son of God ?

When Did Jesus “Become” the Son of God?

I have added a Greek text + my slightly revised translation, and I answer the odd interpretation of Luke 1:35. Now, in my mind there is no doubt about the answer. Updated once again (December 11, 2…

drjimsebt.com

 

[Red Baker]

@Jim

What of God's purposes besides God's eternal purposes are there? What are you actually saying there? Examples?

There are none ~ Jim, by the very fact God chose to reveal himself, then He also purpose to do so, in the manner in which He has, has, thereby we read:

Acts 2:23​

“Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”

God's infinite knowledge, knew perfectly of the need of purposing certain things in order to secured the redemption of His people.

@Red Baker,
First, let me say that I don't agree with the eternal "sonship" of Jesus. But I do believe that God is three distinct and different divine beings. If Scripture did not portray Jesus as both distinct from the Father and yet as himself God in the flesh, the question of the Trinity may never have arisen. But Jesus did that. The same is true to a somewhat lesser extent of the Bible’s portrayal of the Holy Spirit as a divine person

Jim, we are not far apart. I believe Jesus was God manifest in the flesh, but God was not Jesus Christ, for he's a Spirit. Let me explain my understanding ~Jim............

The Trinity Is True..................​

The incarnate Sonship of Jesus Christ does not deny or weaken the Trinity at all. It establishes it. Only the ignorant or malicious will accuse the incarnate Sonship position of denying the Trinity. Brother, the Trinity of the Bible is superior to the speculative Trinity of the Nicene Creed and followers. The Bible makes all three Persons without any distinction in their nature whatsoever. The Bible knows nothing of “God of God” and other philosophical speculations of men. The Bible knows nothing of a begotten god, which confuses the Trinity into paganism. Yet, Rome, even the great reformer John Calvin, and others accuse us of the straw man argument of anti-Trinitarianism. Many proudly say we must use Origen’s, rather than God’s, words for the Trinity to be orthodox!

Scripture teaches one God. There is only one Supreme Being (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 1st Corinthians 4:8-6). Jim, you know full well that God is self-subsistent and independent of others; He is eternal in both directions (Exodus 3:14; Psalms 90:2). The nature of God is that complete collection of attributes (mentioned already above) that makes Him distinctly God (Gal 4:8). Three Persons participate in this single Divine nature without any degree of difference whatsoever, according to creation and the work of redemption for God's elect. They are:

The Highest, the Word, and the Spirit (Luke 1:32; John 1:1; Isaiah 48:16). And the three Persons are the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (Matthew 3:16-17; 28:19-20; 2nd Corinthians 13:14). They are Spirit, Lord, and God (I Cor 12:4-6), or Ancient of Days and Son of man (Daniel 7:13). The doctrine of a three-in-one God is revealed plainly in Scripture (Ist John 5:7), though begotten god advocates deny this glorious testimony in their annual Holy Bible sequels.

Jim, the Word and Spirit are wholly “I AM THAT I AM.” The Word is not what the Father begat! As I have said a few times over ~the Word, Who became flesh in the Lord Jesus Christ, was fully God (John 1:1 cp Colossians 2:9) without any qualifications.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

So you deny the Eternal 3 Divine Persons of the Trinity.

Who became Incarnate ?

I'm still waiting on you to address my questions and answers. Nevertheless, I will answer you question.

You asked: "Who became Incarnate ?"
The Word was made flesh by joining Himself to the tabernacle of Jesus of Narareth, the Son of God.

John 1:14​

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

1st John 5:20​

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”

 

[civic]

@civic

I'm still waiting on you to address my questions and answers. Nevertheless, I will answer you question.

You asked: "Who became Incarnate ?"
The Word was made flesh by joining Himself to the tabernacle of Jesus of Narareth, the Son of God.

John 1:14​

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

1st John 5:20​

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”

Your 1 John 5:20 supports the biblical/historical position of the Eternal Son who is the True God. Just like these passages do regarding the Eternal Son the Creator of all things who existed alongside of the Father before Creation.

Hebrews 1:1-3; 8-10

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.

8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.

10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.



Colossians 1:15-19

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

John 17:1,5,24

1-“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

5-And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

24-“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

conclusion: the Word in John 1:1 is synonomous with the Eternal Son in John 17, Hebrews 1 and Colossians 1 all describing the same creation, the same creator, the same time before creation. You are promoting adoptionism, not the historic/orthodox/ biblical position of Trinitiarianism

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

@civic

I'm still waiting on you to address my questions and answers. Nevertheless, I will answer you question.

You asked: "Who became Incarnate ?"
The Word was made flesh by joining Himself to the tabernacle of Jesus of Narareth, the Son of God.

John 1:14​

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

1st John 5:20​

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”

You should listen to your own Calvinist Theologian Gill on 1 John 5:20- the Eternal Son is He who has come.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
And we know that the Son of God is come,.... That the second Person in the Godhead, who is equal to the Father, and of the same nature with him, is come from the Father, from heaven into this world, not by local motion, but by assumption of nature; that he is come in the flesh, or is become incarnate, in order to work out salvation for his people, by his obedience, sufferings, and death; and this John and others knew, for they had personal knowledge of him, and converse with him; they saw him with their eyes, heard him, and handled him: he dwelt among them, preached to them, wrought miracles before them, which proved him to be what he was; and it may be known that the Messiah must become, since Daniel's weeks, which fixes the time of his coming, are long ago up; the sceptre is departed from Judah, and the second temple is destroyed, neither of which were to be till the Messiah came; and that Jesus of Nazareth is he who is come may be known by the characters of him, and the works done by him:

 

[Redemption]

My suggestion for anyone like @Red Baker and others who say the Son/Father did not exist before the Incarnation to read this article where the Greek N.T. and Grammar show the Son/Father existed for all eternity.

When did Jesus becore the Son of God ?

When Did Jesus “Become” the Son of God?

I have added a Greek text + my slightly revised translation, and I answer the odd interpretation of Luke 1:35. Now, in my mind there is no doubt about the answer. Updated once again (December 11, 2…

drjimsebt.com

My last post, I pray, on this forum.

Who was Jesus' mother. We know he had one when he became mortal.

We know how he became mortal. How did he become the son, with a father if not created?

We know the Word, Spirit and God the God were always and never not there.

You jumped all over me because I gave names to the 3 in the Trinity. And then came back to say God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I tru;y am surprised that no one has suggested that God the Son was actually older the God the Father.

You have not proved, yourself, that the Word who became a living man, was the son. That title never once was used with the Word, yet all sorts of links have the name Jesus used before creation. Funny that we are not told that Jesus was in Genesis 1 or 2.

But the Logos was. In Greek. In John 1.........

Alright.

I am off

 

[Jim]

@Jim

There are none ~ Jim, by the very fact God chose to reveal himself, then He also purpose to do so, in the manner in which He has, has, thereby we read:

Acts 2:23​

“Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”

God's infinite knowledge, knew perfectly of the need of purposing certain things in order to secured the redemption of His people.

Jim, we are not far apart. I believe Jesus was God manifest in the flesh, but God was not Jesus Christ, for he's a Spirit. Let me explain my understanding ~Jim............

It is true that, strictly speaking, God was not Jesus Christ; however, it is absolutely true that Jesus Christ was God. In the same manner, it is true that, strictly speaking, God is not the Father; however, it is absolutely true that the Father is God. The is true for the Holy Spirit. The fact that Jesus was wholly man does not deny his being fully God. That is what is difficult for the human being to fully understand.

The Trinity Is True..................​

The incarnate Sonship of Jesus Christ does not deny or weaken the Trinity at all. It establishes it. Only the ignorant or malicious will accuse the incarnate Sonship position of denying the Trinity. Brother, the Trinity of the Bible is superior to the speculative Trinity of the Nicene Creed and followers. The Bible makes all three Persons without any distinction in their nature whatsoever. The Bible knows nothing of “God of God” and other philosophical speculations of men. The Bible knows nothing of a begotten god, which confuses the Trinity into paganism. Yet, Rome, even the great reformer John Calvin, and others accuse us of the straw man argument of anti-Trinitarianism. Many proudly say we must use Origen’s, rather than God’s, words for the Trinity to be orthodox!

Scripture teaches one God. There is only one Supreme Being (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 1st Corinthians 4:8-6). Jim, you know full well that God is self-subsistent and independent of others; He is eternal in both directions (Exodus 3:14; Psalms 90:2). The nature of God is that complete collection of attributes (mentioned already above) that makes Him distinctly God (Gal 4:8). Three Persons participate in this single Divine nature without any degree of difference whatsoever, according to creation and the work of redemption for God's elect. They are:

The Highest, the Word, and the Spirit (Luke 1:32; John 1:1; Isaiah 48:16). And the three Persons are the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (Matthew 3:16-17; 28:19-20; 2nd Corinthians 13:14). They are Spirit, Lord, and God (I Cor 12:4-6), or Ancient of Days and Son of man (Daniel 7:13). The doctrine of a three-in-one God is revealed plainly in Scripture (Ist John 5:7), though begotten god advocates deny this glorious testimony in their annual Holy Bible sequels.
Jim, the Word and Spirit are wholly “I AM THAT I AM.” The Word is not what the Father begat! As I have said a few times over ~the Word, Who became flesh in the Lord Jesus Christ, was fully God (John 1:1 cp Colossians 2:9) without any qualifications.

We must be on guard against heretical denials of the doctrine of the Trinity. Some deny the oneness of God and affirm polytheism. This is common among pagan religions, and is true of Mormonism and the original Armstrongism. Others deny the threeness of God, saying there is only one truly divine person. An example is fourth‑century Arianism, which taught that Jesus is not truly God but is a created being. Jehovah’s Witnesses are modern‑day Arians. Another denial of God’s threeness is any form of unitarianism, which says there is only one divine person. One kind of unitarianism is called modalism, which says that in his inner nature there are no distinctions within God. Only in his external relations with his creatures does God assume different modes or roles in order to make himself known and accomplish his purposes among men. These modes are successive, not simultaneous. E.g., In OT times the one divine person revealed himself as Father; then he became incarnate as the Son; now he relates to his creatures as the Spirit. A modern example of modalism is the “Oneness movement” among certain Pentecostal bodies, also known as the “Jesus only” Pentecostals.

The doctrine of the Trinity is filled with mystery. That God is one and three at the same time is beyond our ability to understand completely. We should never think it is absurd or contradictory, however. That would be true only if we think that God is one and three in the same sense. But this is not the case. He is ONE in one sense, i.e., one essence; and he is THREE in another sense, i.e., three persons.

Part, perhaps all, of the reason that it is beyond our ability to understand completely is because we only have the experiential knowledge of the physical.

 

[civic]

My last post, I pray, on this forum.

Who was Jesus' mother. We know he had one when he became mortal.

We know how he became mortal. How did he become the son, with a father if not created?

We know the Word, Spirit and God the God were always and never not there.

You jumped all over me because I gave names to the 3 in the Trinity. And then came back to say God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I tru;y am surprised that no one has suggested that God the Son was actually older the God the Father.

You have not proved, yourself, that the Word who became a living man, was the son. That title never once was used with the Word, yet all sorts of links have the name Jesus used before creation. Funny that we are not told that Jesus was in Genesis 1 or 2.

But the Logos was. In Greek. In John 1.........

Alright.

I am off

You are making a false dichotomy fallacy. Its not an either or it is in fact and and both.

1- He was/is the Eternal Son , the 2nd Divine Person of the Trinity.
2- He became a son when He was born from Mary's womb, at His Baptism and Resurrection. Scripture verifies these taking place at different times in His ministry. This speaks of His humanity, not His Divinity.
3- The Father did not become the Father at His birth, His Baptism, Resurrection. He is the Eternal Father.
4- I have provided many OT passages declaring the Father has always been the Father and the Son also identified as the Son in the OT and those passages were not prophetic.
5- The Trinity is Eternal as Father, Son, Holy Spirit- there was never a time when these Divine Persons were not Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

We clearly see the Father in the O.T.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Isa 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

Deu 32:6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

And the Son

Daniel 3:25
He answered and said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like the son of god

Psalm 2:12
Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has ascended into heaven and descended?Who has gathered the wind in His fists?Who has wrapped the waters in His garment?Who has established all the ends of the earth?What is His name or His son’s name?

Daniel 7:13
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like the son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

Matthew 11:27: “All these things have been given to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father and anyone to whom the Son of Man decides to reveal him.”

hope this helps !!!

 

[Redemption]

You are making a false dichotomy fallacy. Its not an either or it is in fact and and both.

1- He was/is the Eternal Son , the 2nd Divine Person of the Trinity.
2- He became a son when He was born from Mary's womb, at His Baptism and Resurrection. Scripture verifies these taking place at different times in His ministry. This speaks of His humanity, not His Divinity.
3- The Father did not become the Father at His birth, His Baptism, Resurrection. He is the Eternal Father.
4- I have provided many OT passages declaring the Father has always been the Father and the Son also identified as the Son in the OT and those passages were not prophetic.
5- The Trinity is Eternal as Father, Son, Holy Spirit- there was never a time when these Divine Persons were not Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Well, I am still here......
I never said there was a time when the Trinity was not. But even looking back into the OT days and those who wrote the books... Do you for one minute think that they ever had a discussion about what was happening before the Spirit was hovering over the face of the deep... depending on the translation.

People of old testament time certainly were aware of God's powers or they were living in denial. The stories that were handed down from the beginning assured those that had an interest would know. I hope I am clear on that.

There were often mentions of the Son... more often maybe always cause I cannot take the time right now to get all the scriptures in front of me they... OLD TESTAMENT were prophetical....

But is it not possible.... just take a deep breath and think on this... that when God the Father is called God the Father in the Old Testament as ai tells it In the Old Testament, God is referred to as Father in several passages, such as Jeremiah 31:9, where He is described as a father to Israel, and Isaiah 64:8, which states, "But now, O LORD, thou art our father." These references highlight a close relationship between God and His people, indicating that the concept of God as Father was present before the New Testament.

Look at these provided in https://fourthgospel.blogspot.com/2020/06/references-to-god-as-father-in-old.html

References to God as Father in the Old Testament​

In my recently posted notes on John 5:1-18, I said, "I do not believe the Old Testament contains a single unambiguous reference to God as the Father." Having now done the tedious work of checking every single occurrence of the word "father" in the Old Testament, I find that this is a bit of an overstatement. There are possibly as many as 13 (but in my judgment only 11) verses in the Old Testament which call God "father."

God as the father of the Israelites

• "Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?" (Deut. 32:6).
• "Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O Lord, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting" (Isaiah 63:16).
• "But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand" (Isaiah 64:8).
• "Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My father, thou art the guide of my youth?" (Jeremiah 3:4).
• "They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn" (Jeremiah 31:9).
• "But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me" (Jeremiah 3:19).

God as the father of Solomon

• "He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee" (1 Chronicles 17:12-13).
• "He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever" (1 Chronicles 22:10).
• "And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father" (1 Chronicles 28:6).

God as the father of the fatherless

• "A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation" (Psalm 68:5).

God as the father of David

• "He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth" (Psalm 89:26-27).

Other possible references that I reject

• "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6). This is not a direct reference to God but the prophetic name given to a child: Pele-joez-el-gibbor-abi-ad-sar-shalom. The elements el and abi mean "God" and "father," respectively, but the name hardly amounts to an assertion that God is the Father. (There are also two minor biblical characters named Abiel, "my father is God"; I don't consider their names to be theological claims, either.)
• "Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?" (Malachi 2:10). Malachi is condemning the priests for showing partiality in their ministry. I read him as saying that partiality is inappropriate for two reasons: we all have one father (i.e., we are all Israelites, descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) and one God has created us all. There immediately follows a reference to "the covenant of our fathers," confirming that he is talking about human ancestors rather than God.

And he goes on with..............

So references to God as father do occur in the Old Testament. Nevertheless, I consider Jesus' use of "Father" to be both quantitatively and qualitatively different from anything in the Old Testament.

The quantitative difference is glaringly obvious. God is called "father" just 11 times in the whole 23,145 verses of the Old Testament. In contrast, the Fourth Gospel alone (879 verses) calls God "Father" 122 times -- and "God" only 83 times.

The qualitative difference is that the Old Testament never uses "Father" the way it uses "God" or "Lord," as a straightforward name/title for the Deity. There are in the Old Testament such statements as "God is my rock" and "the Lord is my light" -- but these are nonce metaphors; they're not what God is called. We don't see any expressions like "keep the commandments of the Light" or "the Rock spake unto Moses" or anything like that. "Father," as used in the Old Testament, is no different in this way from "light" or "rock" or any of the other figurative designations which may from time to time be applied to God, and the King James translation reflects this by not capitalizing "father" even when it is referring to God (except in Isaiah 9:6, where the translators are confused). In the New Testament, on the other hand, "Father" is capitalized because it is what God is called -- particularly in the Fourth Gospel (122 uses of "Father" for God, vs. 67 in the other three Gospels combined).

NOW... I only posted these... because they are making a point I seem not to be able to get across.

Adam was created, and the world went downhill ever since. my opinion

Even though God was thought of, if not overly address as such as Father in the Old Testament... Could this possibly be one reason the idea carried forward to always have God referred to ts God the Father. After all... he is your Father as well as mine.

And if they had the mindset that the first person in the Godhead was God the Father.... that it just fell into place that the 2nd person had to be the son?

God said at Jesus' baptism....Matt 3:17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Psalm 2:7
I will declare the decree: the LORD has said to me, You are my Son; this day have I begotten you.

This day... Not yesterday, not last year, not before there was earth to talk on but this day I have begotten you.

They had been together forever and forever with the spirit... but this day was the day that was chosen to to move the plan forard and for the Word who now would be called Jesus to be our sacrificial lamb.

God was called Father of many things in the Old Testament. Once Jesus was incarnated, then God became thought of as the Father. But the Son was not the son, even though he had been with the father from forever.

I know no other way to say it... but I do understand how man messed it up not truly understanding the Father in the OT in now the Father, but differently in the NT.

We clearly see the Father in the O.T.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Isa 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

Deu 32:6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

And the Son

Daniel 3:25
He answered and said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like the son of god

Psalm 2:12
Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has ascended into heaven and descended?Who has gathered the wind in His fists?Who has wrapped the waters in His garment?Who has established all the ends of the earth?What is His name or His son’s name?

Daniel 7:13
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like the son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

Matthew 11:27: “All these things have been given to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father and anyone to whom the Son of Man decides to reveal him.”

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Well, I am still here......
I never said there was a time when the Trinity was not. But even looking back into the OT days and those who wrote the books... Do you for one minute think that they ever had a discussion about what was happening before the Spirit was hovering over the face of the deep... depending on the translation.

People of old testament time certainly were aware of God's powers or they were living in denial. The stories that were handed down from the beginning assured those that had an interest would know. I hope I am clear on that.

There were often mentions of the Son... more often maybe always cause I cannot take the time right now to get all the scriptures in front of me they... OLD TESTAMENT were prophetical....

But is it not possible.... just take a deep breath and think on this... that when God the Father is called God the Father in the Old Testament as ai tells it In the Old Testament, God is referred to as Father in several passages, such as Jeremiah 31:9, where He is described as a father to Israel, and Isaiah 64:8, which states, "But now, O LORD, thou art our father." These references highlight a close relationship between God and His people, indicating that the concept of God as Father was present before the New Testament.

Look at these provided in https://fourthgospel.blogspot.com/2020/06/references-to-god-as-father-in-old.html

References to God as Father in the Old Testament​

In my recently posted notes on John 5:1-18, I said, "I do not believe the Old Testament contains a single unambiguous reference to God as the Father." Having now done the tedious work of checking every single occurrence of the word "father" in the Old Testament, I find that this is a bit of an overstatement. There are possibly as many as 13 (but in my judgment only 11) verses in the Old Testament which call God "father."

God as the father of the Israelites

• "Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?" (Deut. 32:6).
• "Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O Lord, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting" (Isaiah 63:16).
• "But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand" (Isaiah 64:8).
• "Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My father, thou art the guide of my youth?" (Jeremiah 3:4).
• "They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn" (Jeremiah 31:9).
• "But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me" (Jeremiah 3:19).

God as the father of Solomon

• "He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee" (1 Chronicles 17:12-13).
• "He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever" (1 Chronicles 22:10).
• "And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father" (1 Chronicles 28:6).

God as the father of the fatherless

• "A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation" (Psalm 68:5).

God as the father of David

• "He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth" (Psalm 89:26-27).

Other possible references that I reject

• "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6). This is not a direct reference to God but the prophetic name given to a child: Pele-joez-el-gibbor-abi-ad-sar-shalom. The elements el and abi mean "God" and "father," respectively, but the name hardly amounts to an assertion that God is the Father. (There are also two minor biblical characters named Abiel, "my father is God"; I don't consider their names to be theological claims, either.)
• "Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?" (Malachi 2:10). Malachi is condemning the priests for showing partiality in their ministry. I read him as saying that partiality is inappropriate for two reasons: we all have one father (i.e., we are all Israelites, descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) and one God has created us all. There immediately follows a reference to "the covenant of our fathers," confirming that he is talking about human ancestors rather than God.

And he goes on with..............

So references to God as father do occur in the Old Testament. Nevertheless, I consider Jesus' use of "Father" to be both quantitatively and qualitatively different from anything in the Old Testament.

The quantitative difference is glaringly obvious. God is called "father" just 11 times in the whole 23,145 verses of the Old Testament. In contrast, the Fourth Gospel alone (879 verses) calls God "Father" 122 times -- and "God" only 83 times.

The qualitative difference is that the Old Testament never uses "Father" the way it uses "God" or "Lord," as a straightforward name/title for the Deity. There are in the Old Testament such statements as "God is my rock" and "the Lord is my light" -- but these are nonce metaphors; they're not what God is called. We don't see any expressions like "keep the commandments of the Light" or "the Rock spake unto Moses" or anything like that. "Father," as used in the Old Testament, is no different in this way from "light" or "rock" or any of the other figurative designations which may from time to time be applied to God, and the King James translation reflects this by not capitalizing "father" even when it is referring to God (except in Isaiah 9:6, where the translators are confused). In the New Testament, on the other hand, "Father" is capitalized because it is what God is called -- particularly in the Fourth Gospel (122 uses of "Father" for God, vs. 67 in the other three Gospels combined).

NOW... I only posted these... because they are making a point I seem not to be able to get across.

Adam was created, and the world went downhill ever since. my opinion

Even though God was thought of, if not overly address as such as Father in the Old Testament... Could this possibly be one reason the idea carried forward to always have God referred to ts God the Father. After all... he is your Father as well as mine.

And if they had the mindset that the first person in the Godhead was God the Father.... that it just fell into place that the 2nd person had to be the son?

God said at Jesus' baptism....Matt 3:17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Psalm 2:7
I will declare the decree: the LORD has said to me, You are my Son; this day have I begotten you.

This day... Not yesterday, not last year, not before there was earth to talk on but this day I have begotten you.

They had been together forever and forever with the spirit... but this day was the day that was chosen to to move the plan forard and for the Word who now would be called Jesus to be our sacrificial lamb.

God was called Father of many things in the Old Testament. Once Jesus was incarnated, then God became thought of as the Father. But the Son was not the son, even though he had been with the father from forever.

I know no other way to say it... but I do understand how man messed it up not truly understanding the Father in the OT in now the Father, but differently in the NT.

The begotten/son passages in the NT have to do with His humanity, not Deity.

What does Jesus say who was sent by the Father to this earth/world ?

Many times Jesus declares it was the Son who was sent to this earth by the Father.

Jesus uses the Son as the Person the Father sent from heaven. This means He was the Son before coming inot this world to be the Savior ?

Question was the Son/Word the Savior before the Incarnation ? yes or no

Or did He only become the Savior after the Incarnation ?

These questions might help you see its not an either or but and/both are true.

 

[civic]

Well, I am still here......
I never said there was a time when the Trinity was not. But even looking back into the OT days and those who wrote the books... Do you for one minute think that they ever had a discussion about what was happening before the Spirit was hovering over the face of the deep... depending on the translation.

People of old testament time certainly were aware of God's powers or they were living in denial. The stories that were handed down from the beginning assured those that had an interest would know. I hope I am clear on that.

There were often mentions of the Son... more often maybe always cause I cannot take the time right now to get all the scriptures in front of me they... OLD TESTAMENT were prophetical....

But is it not possible.... just take a deep breath and think on this... that when God the Father is called God the Father in the Old Testament as ai tells it In the Old Testament, God is referred to as Father in several passages, such as Jeremiah 31:9, where He is described as a father to Israel, and Isaiah 64:8, which states, "But now, O LORD, thou art our father." These references highlight a close relationship between God and His people, indicating that the concept of God as Father was present before the New Testament.

Look at these provided in https://fourthgospel.blogspot.com/2020/06/references-to-god-as-father-in-old.html

References to God as Father in the Old Testament​

In my recently posted notes on John 5:1-18, I said, "I do not believe the Old Testament contains a single unambiguous reference to God as the Father." Having now done the tedious work of checking every single occurrence of the word "father" in the Old Testament, I find that this is a bit of an overstatement. There are possibly as many as 13 (but in my judgment only 11) verses in the Old Testament which call God "father."

God as the father of the Israelites

• "Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?" (Deut. 32:6).
• "Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O Lord, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting" (Isaiah 63:16).
• "But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand" (Isaiah 64:8).
• "Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My father, thou art the guide of my youth?" (Jeremiah 3:4).
• "They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn" (Jeremiah 31:9).
• "But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me" (Jeremiah 3:19).

God as the father of Solomon

• "He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee" (1 Chronicles 17:12-13).
• "He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever" (1 Chronicles 22:10).
• "And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father" (1 Chronicles 28:6).

God as the father of the fatherless

• "A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation" (Psalm 68:5).

God as the father of David

• "He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth" (Psalm 89:26-27).

Other possible references that I reject

• "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6). This is not a direct reference to God but the prophetic name given to a child: Pele-joez-el-gibbor-abi-ad-sar-shalom. The elements el and abi mean "God" and "father," respectively, but the name hardly amounts to an assertion that God is the Father. (There are also two minor biblical characters named Abiel, "my father is God"; I don't consider their names to be theological claims, either.)
• "Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?" (Malachi 2:10). Malachi is condemning the priests for showing partiality in their ministry. I read him as saying that partiality is inappropriate for two reasons: we all have one father (i.e., we are all Israelites, descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) and one God has created us all. There immediately follows a reference to "the covenant of our fathers," confirming that he is talking about human ancestors rather than God.

And he goes on with..............

So references to God as father do occur in the Old Testament. Nevertheless, I consider Jesus' use of "Father" to be both quantitatively and qualitatively different from anything in the Old Testament.

The quantitative difference is glaringly obvious. God is called "father" just 11 times in the whole 23,145 verses of the Old Testament. In contrast, the Fourth Gospel alone (879 verses) calls God "Father" 122 times -- and "God" only 83 times.

The qualitative difference is that the Old Testament never uses "Father" the way it uses "God" or "Lord," as a straightforward name/title for the Deity. There are in the Old Testament such statements as "God is my rock" and "the Lord is my light" -- but these are nonce metaphors; they're not what God is called. We don't see any expressions like "keep the commandments of the Light" or "the Rock spake unto Moses" or anything like that. "Father," as used in the Old Testament, is no different in this way from "light" or "rock" or any of the other figurative designations which may from time to time be applied to God, and the King James translation reflects this by not capitalizing "father" even when it is referring to God (except in Isaiah 9:6, where the translators are confused). In the New Testament, on the other hand, "Father" is capitalized because it is what God is called -- particularly in the Fourth Gospel (122 uses of "Father" for God, vs. 67 in the other three Gospels combined).

NOW... I only posted these... because they are making a point I seem not to be able to get across.

Adam was created, and the world went downhill ever since. my opinion

Even though God was thought of, if not overly address as such as Father in the Old Testament... Could this possibly be one reason the idea carried forward to always have God referred to ts God the Father. After all... he is your Father as well as mine.

And if they had the mindset that the first person in the Godhead was God the Father.... that it just fell into place that the 2nd person had to be the son?

God said at Jesus' baptism....Matt 3:17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Psalm 2:7
I will declare the decree: the LORD has said to me, You are my Son; this day have I begotten you.

This day... Not yesterday, not last year, not before there was earth to talk on but this day I have begotten you.

They had been together forever and forever with the spirit... but this day was the day that was chosen to to move the plan forard and for the Word who now would be called Jesus to be our sacrificial lamb.

God was called Father of many things in the Old Testament. Once Jesus was incarnated, then God became thought of as the Father. But the Son was not the son, even though he had been with the father from forever.

I know no other way to say it... but I do understand how man messed it up not truly understanding the Father in the OT in now the Father, but differently in the NT.

I referenced this earlier but not sure if you saw it so I will repost this that addresses the becoming Son passages.

Updated: Jesus was the royal Son of God, proclaimed at his resurrection and his exaltation.
First, this passage is long, but Jesus is proclaimed the Son of God at his royal crowning at his resurrection and exaltation and heavenly priesthood:
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”?
Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”?
[…]
13 To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet. (Heb. 1:5, 13, emphasis added)
Second, Paul is particularly clear about connecting Jesus’s Sonship to the resurrection:
32 “We tell you the good news: What God promised our ancestors 33 he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:
“‘You are my son;
today I have become your father.

34 God raised him from the dead so that he will never be subject to decay. (Acts 13:32-34, emphasis added)
Third, the author of Hebrews says that Jesus “became” the Son when he became the royal priest during his heavenly priesthood after the order of Melchizedek:
5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.”
6 And he says in another place,
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.” (Heb. 5:5-6)

Fourth, once again Paul links Jesus’s Sonship with his resurrection:
2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life[a] was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom. 1:3-4, emphasis added)

All of those above verses say that Jesus became the Son of God during his time on earth and his resurrection and exaltation: So his Sonship occurs in time.

Now let’s switch over to looking into eternal Sonship.
The Son of God in eternity past, his earthly ministry, and his eternal exaltation
1.. In eternity past (this section is the most important, since the Adoptionists-plus deny it).
Matthew 11:27: “All these things have been given to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father and anyone to whom the Son of Man decides to reveal him.”
Grant R. Osborne: “Matthew’s use of ‘know’ ([epiginōskō is pronounced eh-pea-gih-noh-skoh, and the “g” is hard as in “get”] the present tense is gnomic, knowledge shared in eternal past, present, and eternal future) here is critical … it is likely that there is perfective force in the prefix [epi] –with the meaning ‘know exactly, completely, through and through’ (BAGD, 291), with the added idea of recognizing and acknowledging” (comment on 11:27).

The bottom line is that the Greek present tense is timeless and supports the notion that the Father and Son knew each other intimately for eternity, in the past, present and future—forever. Jesus did not become the Son at his birth or baptism (Matthew: Zondervan Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament [Zondervan, 2010], p. 440).

John 1:1-2 says that God and the Logos existed before creation:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. (John 1:1-2)
This verse further clarifies the identity of God and the Logos: they are Father and Son, who came from the Father in heaven:
The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as the only and unique Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14, my translation)

Then Jesus says the same thing about the Father:
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. (John 17:5)
So how does Jesus have the status of being the Logos, and how does God have the status of being God before the world existed but do not have the status of the Father and Son before creation? Actually, Jesus is simply clarifying who God and the Logos were in John 1:14 and 17:5.

They are Father and Son (who is praying the prayer in 17:5).
John 5:26:
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. (John 5:26)

This grant cannot be temporary because the Father also has life in himself eternally. Therefore the Son also has life in himself eternally–just as the Father has this.
John 17:24:
24 Father, those whom you have given me, I want them to be with me where I am, so that they may see my glory which you have given me because you have loved me before the foundation of the world. (My translation)
Being a Father implies a Son. What was the Father doing before the foundation or creation of the world? He was loving his Son.

John 1:18 says: “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.” Jesus more fully reveals their status and nature–Father and Son–beyond God and Logos. Therefore the Father was in heaven with his Son before the incarnation and birth.

Jesus says that he was in the presence of the Father: “I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence” […] (John 8:38). The term “presence” can be translated as “alongside” or “next to” the Father. The point: they were in close relationship as we see in John 1:1-2, 14 and 17:5. This relationship in the Father’s presence happened before the incarnation. To be the Father, he had to have at least one son in his presence. That Son is Jesus.

John 3:16 says that God sent his Son. This verse affirms that Jesus was the Son before he was sent.
Hebrews 1:2 says: “but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.” That verse says that the Son was the person through whom God made the universe. He was the Son before creation, long before his birth. That verses also identifies who the Logos was in John 1:1-4.

Hebrews 1:3:
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being […] (Heb. 1:3)
God’s radiance and his being are eternal because light that does not radiate is not light, and God’s being is not temporary with a beginning; therefore the Son is also eternal

1 John 5:20 says: “And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.” This verse teaches that his Sonship is the same as his “Godness.” It would be odd if Jesus were always God, but not always the Son. Rather, he was eternally both.
Colossians 1:9-20 is particularly clear that Jesus was the Son before creation and earth-time, that is, in eternity past: This is my translation. I add my comments in bold font within brackets:

Colossians 1:9-20​

]9 Διὰ τοῦτο καὶ ἡμεῖς, ἀφ’ ἧς ἡμέρας ἠκούσαμεν, οὐ παυόμεθα ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν προσευχόμενοι καὶ αἰτούμενοι, ἵνα πληρωθῆτε τὴν ἐπίγνωσιν τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ ἐν πάσῃ σοφίᾳ καὶ συνέσει πνευματικῇ, 10 περιπατῆσαι ἀξίως τοῦ κυρίου εἰς πᾶσαν ἀρεσκείαν, ἐν παντὶ ἔργῳ ἀγαθῷ καρποφοροῦντες καὶ αὐξανόμενοι τῇ ἐπιγνώσει τοῦ θεοῦ, 11 ἐν πάσῃ δυνάμει δυναμούμενοι κατὰ τὸ κράτος τῆς δόξης αὐτοῦ εἰς πᾶσαν ὑπομονὴν καὶ μακροθυμίαν. Μετὰ χαρᾶς 12 εὐχαριστοῦντες τῷ πατρὶ τῷ ἱκανώσαντι ὑμᾶς εἰς τὴν μερίδα τοῦ κλήρου τῶν ἁγίων ἐν τῷ φωτί· 13 ὃς ἐρρύσατο ἡμᾶς ἐκ τῆς ἐξουσίας τοῦ σκότους καὶ μετέστησεν εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ υἱοῦ τῆς ἀγάπης αὐτοῦ, 14 ἐν ᾧ ἔχομεν τὴν ἀπολύτρωσιν, τὴν ἄφεσιν τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν·
15 ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως,
16 ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα
ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς,
τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα,
εἴτε θρόνοι εἴτε κυριότητες
εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι·
τὰ πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται·
17 καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων
καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν,
18 καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν ἡ κεφαλὴ τοῦ σώματος τῆς ἐκκλησίας·
ὅς ἐστιν ἀρχή,
πρωτότοκος ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν,
ἵνα γένηται ἐν πᾶσιν αὐτὸς πρωτεύων,
19 ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ εὐδόκησεν πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα κατοικῆσαι 20 καὶ δι’ αὐτοῦ ἀποκαταλλάξαι τὰ πάντα εἰς αὐτόν, εἰρηνοποιήσας διὰ τοῦ αἵματος τοῦ σταυροῦ αὐτοῦ, [δι’ αὐτοῦ] εἴτε τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς εἴτε τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.[/td]
[td]9 Because of this, we also, from the day we heard [of it], have not stopped praying for you and asking that you would be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding, 10 to walk worthily of the Lord, to please [him] fully, in every good work, producing fruit and growing in the knowledge of God, 11 [you Colossians] being empowered with all might according to the power of his glory, for all perseverance and patience; with joy 12 [you Colossians] giving thanks to the Father who qualified you [Colossians] for a [actually “the”] share of the inheritance of the saints in the light, 13 who [the Father] rescued us from the authority of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom [shifts to Son, the nearest antecedent] we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins,

15 who [the Son] is the image of the invisible God, firstborn [Sonship again] over all creation, 16 for by him [the Son] all things were created, in heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether rulers or authorities—all things were created through him [the Son] and for him [the Son]; 17 and he [the Son] is before everything and everything consists in him, 18 and he [the Son is still the subject of these clauses] is the head of the body, the church, who [the Son] is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he [the Son] would be preeminent in everything, 19 because in him [the Son] all the fullness [of God; cf. 2:9] was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him [the Son] to reconcile all things to himself [God or Christ], making peace through the blood and his [Son’s] cross—whether on the earth or in heavens.

That long passage is stark and clear. He was the Son before creation, that is, before his earthly birth. (Evidently, the editors of the Nestle-Aland Greek text believes that verses 15-20 should be indented because it may be an early hymn.)
The titled question has been answered. Jesus never “became” the Son of God. He was always the Son, eternally the Son.

2.. On earth (this section is not in dispute, so we don’t need to spend much time here)
As noted, Luke 1:35 says that he shall be called the Son of God (implied: he was not the son of Joseph, but Jesus’s conception was of God). People calling him the Son of God does not deny his being the Son of God before creation. That is, Luke 1:35 was written for the people’s perspective. He will be called the Son of God after his baptism–even Satan calls him the Son of God after Jesus’s baptism (Luke 4:1-13). But does this mean he was never the Son of God before his baptism? No. He was. Gabriel was simply informing his mother of his calling and destiny. We should not let people’s limited perspective guide the eternal perspective. We should not let Luke 1:35 dominate all other verses, as if it settles the matter.

Throughout his ministry, he was called the Son of God by people (Matt. 14:33, 27:54; Mark 1:1 John 1:49), demons and even Satan (Matt. 4:3, 6, 8:29; Mark 3:11). Of course his Father called him his Son (Matt. 3:17, 17:5). Humans, Satan and demons, and the Father called him the Son of God during his ministry. Why wouldn’t they? This is what Luke 1:35 predicted. It was a public acknowledgement of his nature. But Luke 1:35 does not say, “He was not the Son of God before his birth” or “This will be the first time he is the Son of God.” The verse, instead, merely reveals to Mary who her son really was going to be called, so get ready for it. It is the first time that people will acknowledge him to be the Son of God.
Bottom line: the moment the people called him the Son of God does not make him the Son of god, except in the people’s own mind. He was the Son of God before creation and at his resurrection and exaltation.

As we just saw, Jesus was appointed the Son of God with power at his resurrection (Rom. 1:4; Acts 13:33). He was already the Son, but his resurrection confirmed it with power. This declaration is his coronation (Ps. 2).

However, to follow Adoptionist-plus logic, we have to conclude that he was not the Son of God until his resurrection. In reply, there are plenty of Scriptures that proclaim he was the Son before his resurrection. We should not allow a title late in his life (resurrection and coronation) go backwards and deny his Sonship during his ministry. Likewise, we should not allow Luke 1:35 to deny that he was the Son before his birth or baptism–before creation.

All of the verses work together to reveal who he was from eternity past to eternity future.

3.. In heaven (likewise, this section is not in dispute, so let’s not spend much time here)
He is the high priest, and Hebrew 5:5 says that at this moment he is called God’s Son (cf. 5:9; 7:28): “In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father’” (Heb. 5:5).
Therefore Jesus was always the Son of God and will always be the Son of God, in eternity past, while he was on earth, and in eternity future.

4.. Possible reply to those three points
Adoptionists-plus agree that he will be the Son for all eternity future and was the Son of God during his ministry. However, they say that the NT authors didn’t know about the Sonship of Jesus until he was born; therefore he was not the Son in eternity past because he became the Son only after he was born! The NT authors merely projected the title “Son” in their epistles for convenience, not because he was actually the Son before his birth.

Apparently, Adoptionists-plus wants the NT authors to write something like this (boiled down):
The Father existed as the Father before creation. The Son existed as the Son before creation.
Instead, they wrote (boiled down):

The Father existed before creation (John 1:18, 8:38, 17:5; 1 Cor. 8:4; Eph. 3:14-15). The Son existed before creation (John 1:18; Col. 1:14-17).
The demand of the Adoptionist-plus is too pushy. Scripture is clear enough, as written.

References to the Father before creation
In Eph. 3:14-15 we read: “For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. So his Fatherhood is lifted from the earth to the families in heaven. where eternity exists.

However, Adoptionism-plus could say that his Fatherhood began when he made the families in heaven, a moment in time, not in eternity past. In reply, the verses about Jesus being the Son before creation clarifies that he really was the Son in eternity past. A son needs a father. The heavenly Father was the Father to the Heavenly Son.

1 Corinthians 8:6 reads: “one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live.” As noted, a Father has to have at least one child, and the Son of God fits the role–all before creation.

Further, Adoptionism-plus could again claim that since the NT authors didn’t know about these titles / attributes until Jesus was born, they proleptically (“forward-fitted”) applied the title / attribute “Son” and “Father” to their later writings after they found out about it, either by personal revelation or the birth and life of Christ. So the Father was not eternally the Father. Wrong, as the above data show.

Conclusion
There is enough biblical evidence to affirm that the Trinity’s Fatherhood and Sonship are not new or tacked on only at the exact moment the Second Person was conceived in the womb or at his baptism or when people started calling him “the Son of God.” Their Fatherhood and Sonship are every bit of who they are as their mercy and love and holiness (etc.) are. Since Fatherhood and Sonship are essential to who they are, the titles are eternal and cannot be added or shed.

The Trinity has been, is, and shall forever be the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, eternally!

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

how did this thread go from salvation is a gift. to the trinity?