Ephesians 2:8 salvation is the gift

DavidTree said:
ok - ty

Simple fix = can we find a OT verse that declares Him as the Son apart from the prophecies of Immanuel???
Click to expand...
Yes I posted a few earlier


Daniel 3:25
He answered and said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like the son of god

Psalm 2:12
Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has ascended into heaven and descended?Who has gathered the wind in His fists?Who has wrapped the waters in His garment?Who has established all the ends of the earth?What is His name or His son’s name?
 
civic said:
But the Word in John 1:1 is the same as the Son who was in heaven and sent by the Father to this earth. The Son is the Word and the Word is the Son before the Incarnation, before creation. The 2nd Person of the Trinity is the Son/ Word who was with God. John 1:1 and John 17:1,5 are the exact same reference before creation showing relationship of the Son/ Word with God/ the Father
Click to expand...
Sigh. Disagree.

John 17:1 -55


1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4“I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Nothing here says that before his incarnation that Jesus was God's son.

Jesus knows, because of having been born, and I am sure Mary and Joseph at a young age laid the ground work on how he came to be... (if they didn't no matter) but Jesus knows, knew that God was His Father and he is praying and talking to Him at the same time... "“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,"

So verse 5 He goes on... Now, Father. What else would Jesus have called Him having known Him on earth as His Father for 30 plus years... He sure was not going to call Him by another name because He WAS Jesus' Father. Without Him, Without the Spirit, there would have been no Jesus.

Jesus had to come to earth to be our sacrificial lamb. To shed his blood for us. He could not come as diety.. he had to come as a man so we would learn what faith is all about.

Anyway.

Vs 5, still does not say Jesus was the Son before the world was.

But Jesus did talk about God as His Father so how would the scribes describe that?

Jesus prayed... glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Not one mention of the word Son.

If you go back to the OT and look at the places where begotten son is used...or Firstborn is used...
Look at Ex 4:22... "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, "Israel is My son, My firstborn.

This is not even speaking of Jesus.

Look here at other mentions....

Table of Contents

​

The Scriptural witness to the Messiah as the Son of God did not begin in the New Testament. It first appeared in the Old Testament. The following is a list of seven direct references to that truth:

​

“I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: “He said to Me, ‘Thou art My Son, today I have begotten Thee.”

This verse is quoted in Acts 13:33 as a reference to Jesus Christ and His resurrection from the dead. The last part is quoted in Hebrews 1:5 as a reference to the Son of God and His superiority over angels. Also, the final part is quoted in Hebrews 5:5 as a reference to Jesus Christ as called by God to be the High Priest for the believers. This verse is never used in the Bible to refer to any son of David other than Jesus who is more than a human (Matthew 22:41-45).

​

“Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.”

This verse is a reference to the Messiah, whom Jehovah has declared to be His Son. The psalmist counsels those who desire to reject the Son, to recognize Him as King and to submit to His authority (John 5:23).

​

“Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son’s name?”

In this verse, the Son of God is not only seen with the Creator but as also being involved in Creation, thus being equal with the Creator (John 1:1-5; Colossians 1:13-17; Hebrews 1:3).

​

“Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.”

This is a prediction of the Messiah, given about 700 years before the birth of Jesus. The “Son” will be “Immanuel,” which means “God with us” (Matthew 1:23; Matthew 1:18-25).

​

“For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.”

This is a prophecy about the Messiah, given about 700 years before the birth of Jesus. The child is the “son to be given” the “Mighty God,” the “Eternal Father,” and the one who rules over all creation (Revelation 19:16).

​

“He answered and said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

Early Christian interpreters (Hippolytus, Chrysostom, and others) saw the fourth personage in the fire as the second Person of the Godhead – the Son of God. The majority of conservative Christians teach this view.

​

“When Israel was a youth I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son.”

The last part of this verse is quoted in Matthew 2:15 as a reference to Jesus Christ the Son of God and His return to the land of Israel from Egypt after the death of King Herod who attempted to destroy Him.

There is a lot of prophesy here....

But I still maintain that Jesus became God's Son after His incarnation.
 
Redemption said:
Sigh. Disagree.

John 17:1 -55


1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4“I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Nothing here says that before his incarnation that Jesus was God's son.

Jesus knows, because of having been born, and I am sure Mary and Joseph at a young age laid the ground work on how he came to be... (if they didn't no matter) but Jesus knows, knew that God was His Father and he is praying and talking to Him at the same time... "“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,"

So verse 5 He goes on... Now, Father. What else would Jesus have called Him having known Him on earth as His Father for 30 plus years... He sure was not going to call Him by another name because He WAS Jesus' Father. Without Him, Without the Spirit, there would have been no Jesus.

Jesus had to come to earth to be our sacrificial lamb. To shed his blood for us. He could not come as diety.. he had to come as a man so we would learn what faith is all about.

Anyway.

Vs 5, still does not say Jesus was the Son before the world was.

But Jesus did talk about God as His Father so how would the scribes describe that?

Jesus prayed... glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Not one mention of the word Son.

If you go back to the OT and look at the places where begotten son is used...or Firstborn is used...
Look at Ex 4:22... "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, "Israel is My son, My firstborn.

This is not even speaking of Jesus.

Look here at other mentions....

Table of Contents

​

The Scriptural witness to the Messiah as the Son of God did not begin in the New Testament. It first appeared in the Old Testament. The following is a list of seven direct references to that truth:

​

“I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: “He said to Me, ‘Thou art My Son, today I have begotten Thee.”

This verse is quoted in Acts 13:33 as a reference to Jesus Christ and His resurrection from the dead. The last part is quoted in Hebrews 1:5 as a reference to the Son of God and His superiority over angels. Also, the final part is quoted in Hebrews 5:5 as a reference to Jesus Christ as called by God to be the High Priest for the believers. This verse is never used in the Bible to refer to any son of David other than Jesus who is more than a human (Matthew 22:41-45).

​

“Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.”

This verse is a reference to the Messiah, whom Jehovah has declared to be His Son. The psalmist counsels those who desire to reject the Son, to recognize Him as King and to submit to His authority (John 5:23).

​

“Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son’s name?”

In this verse, the Son of God is not only seen with the Creator but as also being involved in Creation, thus being equal with the Creator (John 1:1-5; Colossians 1:13-17; Hebrews 1:3).

​

“Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.”

This is a prediction of the Messiah, given about 700 years before the birth of Jesus. The “Son” will be “Immanuel,” which means “God with us” (Matthew 1:23; Matthew 1:18-25).

​

“For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.”

This is a prophecy about the Messiah, given about 700 years before the birth of Jesus. The child is the “son to be given” the “Mighty God,” the “Eternal Father,” and the one who rules over all creation (Revelation 19:16).

​

“He answered and said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

Early Christian interpreters (Hippolytus, Chrysostom, and others) saw the fourth personage in the fire as the second Person of the Godhead – the Son of God. The majority of conservative Christians teach this view.

​

“When Israel was a youth I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son.”

The last part of this verse is quoted in Matthew 2:15 as a reference to Jesus Christ the Son of God and His return to the land of Israel from Egypt after the death of King Herod who attempted to destroy Him.

There is a lot of prophesy here....

But I still maintain that Jesus became God's Son after His incarnation.
Click to expand...
False dichotomy fallacy- its not one or the other regarding the Son.

He is both the Eternal Son and the begotton Son in time via the Incarnation, Baptism of Jesus, Mount of Transfiguration and Resurrection.
 
@civic
civic said:
The Son is the Word and the Word is the Son before the Incarnation, before creation.
Click to expand...
civic, once more, then I may just let this go, since no progress is being made.

Jesus Christ in his divine nature was God, without any qualifications ~ proven by many scriptures, some of which have been provided. I cannot over emphasize this enough and will not, it is not even debatable.

You said: "Word is the Son before the Incarnation, before creation". Jesus was indeed the Word in his True Deity as God; but you are dead wrong saying the Word was Jesus before his incarnation! This you can never prove using God's testimony concerning his Son.

Bottom line is Jesus was God manifest in the flesh in the person of His Son, Jesus Christ who is the ONLY begotten Son of God, in the manner in which he was begotten......begotten in time around two thousand years ago............. but God was NOT Jesus Christ, for God is a Spirit that lives in eternity, always has, always will, this will never change, not, not never. It is called the mystery of godliness, which at the moment is hidden from you.
 
Red Baker said:
@civic

civic, once more, then I may just let this go, since no progress is being made.

Jesus Christ in his divine nature was God, without any qualifications ~ proven by many scriptures, some of which have been provided. I cannot over emphasize this enough and will not, it is not even debatable.

You said: "Word is the Son before the Incarnation, before creation". Jesus was indeed the Word in his True Deity as God; but you are dead wrong saying the Word was Jesus before his incarnation! This you can never prove using God's testimony concerning his Son.

Bottom line is Jesus was God manifest in the flesh in the person of His Son, Jesus Christ who is the ONLY begotten Son of God, in the manner in which he was begotten......begotten in time around two thousand years ago............. but God was NOT Jesus Christ, for God is a Spirit that lives in eternity, always has, always will, this will never change, not, not never. It is called the mystery of godliness, which at the moment is hidden from you.
Click to expand...
I’m not talking about the 2 natures in Christ but the Pre Incarnate Son, the 2nd Divine Person of the Trinity. I’ve given over a dozen NT verses identifying Him as the Son before the Incarnation and several OT passages identifying Him as the Son before the Incarnation.

Your problem is not with me but with Scripture and your misunderstanding of the Trinity.
 
Red Baker said:
@civic

civic, once more, then I may just let this go, since no progress is being made.

Jesus Christ in his divine nature was God, without any qualifications ~ proven by many scriptures, some of which have been provided. I cannot over emphasize this enough and will not, it is not even debatable.

You said: "Word is the Son before the Incarnation, before creation". Jesus was indeed the Word in his True Deity as God; but you are dead wrong saying the Word was Jesus before his incarnation! This you can never prove using God's testimony concerning his Son.

Bottom line is Jesus was God manifest in the flesh in the person of His Son, Jesus Christ who is the ONLY begotten Son of God, in the manner in which he was begotten......begotten in time around two thousand years ago............. but God was NOT Jesus Christ, for God is a Spirit that lives in eternity, always has, always will, this will never change, not, not never. It is called the mystery of godliness, which at the moment is hidden from you.
Click to expand...
i see the point that @civic is making = so we need to SEE if the scripture below is a prophecy or a absolute before incarnation

Psalm 45
1My heart is overflowing with a good theme;
I recite my composition concerning the King;
My tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
2You are fairer than the sons of men;
Grace is poured upon Your lips;
Therefore God has blessed You forever.
3Gird Your sword upon Your thigh, O Mighty One,
With Your glory and Your majesty.
4And in Your majesty ride prosperously because of truth, humility, and righteousness;
And Your right hand shall teach You awesome things.
5Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the King’s enemies;
The peoples fall under You.
6Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
 
@civic
civic said:
I’m not talking about the 2 natures in Christ but the Pre Incarnate Son, the 2nd Divine Person of the Trinity. I’ve given over a dozen NT verses identifying Him as the Son before the Incarnation and several OT passages identifying Him as the Son before the Incarnation.
Click to expand...
The pre-incarnate Christ was Jehovah Himself, the Word of God. An eternally generated Son of God is profane speculation and heresy.
 
civic said:
That’s why we need to be careful with any creeds or confessions that are extra biblical and are not inspired. While they may have gotten many things right they were not infallible.
Click to expand...
i hope that we can allow time and patience and perseverance on this without it getting into a 'he said/you said/i said type of pointing fingers

Do you think Psalm 45:1-6 is a prophecy or an absolute?
 
DavidTree said:
i hope that we can allow time and patience and perseverance on this without it getting into a 'he said/you said/i said type of pointing fingers

Do you think Psalm 45:1-6 is a prophecy or an absolute?
Click to expand...
Ditto and I’ll be careful to as the Trinity , nature of God is what I’m most passionate about in my theological studies. I’ve been debating / defending it since the 80’s against JW’s and other groups.
 
civic said:
Ditto and I’ll be careful to as the Trinity , nature of God is what I’m most passionate about in my theological studies. I’ve been debating / defending it since the 80’s against JW’s and other groups.
Click to expand...
i have come to realize that RCC, jw and SDA share some common error concerning Christ

Not sure on SDA concerning 'Trinity' but they do follow a 'prophetess'(who is dead for some time now) and this dead prophetess exalts saturday above Christ.

jw = we all know that major error

RCC = Mary tells her son jesus what to do.................

In all 3 there is a devaluing of CHRIST
 
DavidTree said:
Do you think Psalm 45:1-6 is a prophecy or an absolute?
Click to expand...

IMO, the Psalm is a prophesy.

However when read in Hebrews 1:8-9, no question is an absolute

8 But of the Son He says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter His kingdom.

9“You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”
 
@civic
civic said:
Where did I say eternal generated ?

I said He is the Eternal Son in the same way as the Eternal Father.
Click to expand...
Brother, I truly believe you do not believe in such, yet you are saying amen to the Nicene Creed that teaches this.
Red Baker said:
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
Click to expand...
A little more tomorrow and then I'm finished with this subject for now. As I said: Brother, I truly believe you do not believe in such, yet you are saying amen to the Nicene Creed that teaches this ~yet once a person seriously considers this doctrine carefully, "as taught by creeds", they should be able to see through its attack on what we know to be is real Divinity of the Most High God? His Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind. Whatever position we take, must agree to these Divine attributes, and what term we used to defined our position, we must be able to defined those terms with scriptures, or else not use them.

I was faced with these dilemmas back in the mid eighties, when I first considered my position that I was taught when I first came to Christ back in the early seventies. I spent many hours, days, months, and even years pondering this subject, and truly had some strong reservation about leaving the eternal Sonship position, since most all of my favorite writers, strongly defended its camp, the likes of John Gill, John Calvin A.W. Pink, and just about every spiritual writer that I had ever read behind, each following the other person into error. These men loved and fear God more than I did without question, but my allegiance was not to these great men of faith, but to the word of God, to whom we all must give an account to.

This doctrine was what got Michael Servetus' burned to death by the city council of Geneva. Servetus's execution is a controversial event in history, highlighting the religious tensions and intolerance during that period of time. While I'm not here to defend Servetus's death as a true martyr, since he went to Geneva to confront Calvin on this very subject, exactly what he did believe is uncertain, since his works were burned with him. But, it is recorded of him saying this when dying:

Michael Servetus's last words before being burned at the stake were, "Jesus, Son of the Eternal God, have mercy upon me." This statement, while seemingly invoking Jesus, was significant because Servetus did not believe in the Trinitarian doctrine as taught by the Reformers who took their doctrine with them from Rome, when they left the Great Whore, particularly the concept of the eternal Son of God. He believed the Son was conceived in time by the Father and was not eternal himself, "as far as his flesh and Sonship goes". This belief was a key point of contention with John Calvin and the authorities in Geneva, who viewed it as heresy. But, then again, all we have is history without Michael Servetus' very own works to compare with scriptures~so, I'm not at liberty to defend MS, or, to condemned Calvin, since I was not there to give an honest and scriptural evaluation of what happened, and what was said back and forth, and what MS truly believed as far as Jesus' Sonship goes.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Red Baker said:
@civic

Brother, I truly believe you do not believe in such, yet you are saying amen to the Nicene Creed that teaches this.

A little more tomorrow and then I'm finished with this subject for now. As I said: Brother, I truly believe you do not believe in such, yet you are saying amen to the Nicene Creed that teaches this ~yet once a person seriously considers this doctrine carefully, "as taught by creeds", they should be able to see through its attack on what we know to be is real Divinity of the Most High God? His Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind. Whatever position we take, must agree to these Divine attributes, and what term we used to defined our position, we must be able to defined those terms with scriptures, or else not use them.

I was faced with these dilemmas back in the mid eighties, when I first considered my position that I was taught when I first came to Christ back in the early seventies. I spent many hours, days, months, and even years pondering this subject, and truly had some strong reservation about leaving the eternal Sonship position, since most all of my favorite writers, strongly defended its camp, the likes of John Gill, John Calvin A.W. Pink, and just about every spiritual writer that I had ever read behind, each following the other person into error. These men loved and fear God more than I did without question, but my allegiance was not to these great men of faith, but to the word of God, to whom we all must give an account to.

This doctrine was what got Michael Servetus' burned to death by the city council of Geneva. Servetus's execution is a controversial event in history, highlighting the religious tensions and intolerance during that period of time. While I'm not here to defend Servetus's death as a true martyr, since he went to Geneva to confront Calvin on this very subject, exactly what he did believe is uncertain, since his works were burned with him. But, it is recorded of him saying this when dying:
Click to expand...
I said I affirm scripture which is inspired not the creeds or confessions. They contain much truth but also contain errors.
 

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