Redemption
Active Member
Thank you
Ephesians 2:8 salvation is the gift
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
Redemption
Active Member
This is very true, yet there are those here who call the Word a God. So thy still have no clue.
@civic
Brother, I'm sure you mean well, and your heart is for the truth, but not according to true knowledge of the truth ~ but this only adds confusion to corruption concerning the Godhead. I'm coming with a posit soon.
Sorry, but it does not.
Brother, I'm sure you mean well, and your heart is for the truth, but not according to true knowledge of the truth ~ but this only adds confusion to corruption concerning the Godhead. I'm coming with a posit soon.
Bob Carabbio
Active Member
But since Salvation IS BY FAITH, and FAITH is sourced by the Holy Spirit throughthe Word of GOD, then the primary GIFT is FAITH that may result in Salvation when properly exercised through submission and repentance.
@Studyman
With these five words states what the Jews clearly believed in ~Jehovah was the I AM THAT I AM! Jesus claimed eternal, divine nature with these five words for himself without any qualifications or modification! Only men add their qualifications and their modifications as far as his divine nature goes being the I AM THAT I AM. The double verily, proves that what he was saying would be believed by very, very few.
NO! He said this:
John 8:58
“Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”With these five words states what the Jews clearly believed in ~Jehovah was the I AM THAT I AM! Jesus claimed eternal, divine nature with these five words for himself without any qualifications or modification! Only men add their qualifications and their modifications as far as his divine nature goes being the I AM THAT I AM. The double verily, proves that what he was saying would be believed by very, very few.
Sir, you are part of this world's religious system, and you deny the most essential truth of the Scriptures ~ you fail the true litmus test concerning Jesus Christ's true deity being the TRUE GOD of Genesis 1:1...... this should concern you, but it does not seems to bother you.
You have no right to judge his spirit before God, his doctrine you can, and should if you can prove him wrong in order to help him to more perfect in his doctrine, but not his heart, and his love for the scriptures, and whether or not he's a doer of the word of God, you are crossing over the line, and should repent.
civic
Active Member
Well I have provided plenty of scriptures that show He was the Son prior to the Incarnation and before creation from John 17 and Hebrews 1
civic
Active Member
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.”
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
DavidTree
Active Member
In one sentence = AWESOME = thank you
DavidTree
Active Member
All good Brother, just clarify that HE was not incarnate until the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, whereby HE was designated Four distinct titles:
a.) the Only Begotten of the FATHER
b.) the son of man
c.) Immanuel = God with us
d.) Yeshua/Salvation
As the Word that was God progresses thru His Ministry HE, little by little, reveals HIS True Divinity:
a.) Before Abraham IAM
b.) IAM HE
c.) I and my Father are ONE
d.) IAM from Above
e.) the Way the Truth the Life
f.) IAM the Resurrection
g.) Why do you call ME good, there is none Good but One God
h.) the Holy One
and so on
@Studyman please review
DavidTree
Active Member
YES, but not as the Christ but as HE was from Eternity = the LORD
Genesis 3:8 - And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
No, not before Abraham in human form.
The Word that was God did not come down from Above until the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary
When John the Baptist saw JESUS he said: "Behold, the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world"
In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin pledged in marriage to a man named Joseph, who was of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary. The angel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. So the angel told her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”
“How can this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the Holy One to be born will be called the Son of God.
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@civic
I'm coming with my posit tomorrow sometime I trust. I'm having a lot of trouble with sciatic nerve pain going down my left side, that makes it difficult to sit and type at my computer and to even think.
I know them that folks used and have ponder them for almost forty years since being converted from the Eternal Sonship to the Incarnate Sonship position. This should be a great study for others to read and consider. Like I said, godly saints on both side of this issue. Much more in favor of the Eternal Sonship than the Incarnate Sonship ~but, since I have been on both sides, thereby, I know well both sides which helps out so much. I do not think you are going to surprise me with any new information.
civic
Active Member
Looking forward to it
@civic
Some will ask: Why do you reject and deny the eternal Sonship doctrine establish formally and held by the Catholic church which is succinctly expressed in the profession of faith or credo called the Nicene Creed:
"I believe in one God,
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen."
We do not hold to this heresy as proclaimed in this Creed by the Catholic church.
Because Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the Godman that did not exist as such until His incarnation in the womb of the virgin (Luke 1:30-35). The "central doctrine" of the New Testament is that Jesus is the Son of God (Matt 16:13-18; Acts 8:37; I John 5:4-5). The question must be asked, when did Jesus Christ of Nazareth come into existence? We maintain that Jesus of Nazareth came into existence at His conception in Mary. While His divine nature, the Word of God, was eternal God, Jehovah Himself, His human nature had a very definite beginning in the fullness of time and was made by a woman (Gal 4:4).
The language and doctrine of Origen’s eternal generation of the Son of God are pagan and anti-Christian heresies. We have no use for them or any council such as Nicea or any church such as Rome or Baptists that adopt either. We totally reject Origen’s “begotten god” in John 1:18 (see the NASB) and his “a god” in John 1:1 (see the NWT). We believe Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the Son of God – fully God and fully man – but not eternally generated in any sense.
A few questions that need to be considered.
Question #1~ Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? The very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Most High God? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind.
The answer to that questions is NO! So how can one believe in eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ? A Sonship relationship that was before the biblical testimony of Luke 1:11-35. I must stand upon God's own testimony of the conception of the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of Man.
Question #2~ Can there be true Divinity where any of these attributes are wanting in question #1? Surely not.
And we ask~"How can eternal generation of the Son of God be accepted as biblical truth, and for those still holding such doctrine still contend that Jesus Christ is self-existence and independent"? We shall prove that this is an impossibility and a contradiction of terms used in the eternal Sonship defense.
Those that hold to the incarnate Sonship and reject the eternal Sonship are the only ones that can explain and make sense that Jesus Christ is the Everlasting Father of all things~the I AM THAT I AM. We contend that Jesus Christ the Son of God possessed real Divinity that was underived in any sense. There is no possible medium. Either it is so, or not so. We know that Jesus Christ was God manifested in flesh before Jews and Gentiles and that he preached unto both, and both rejected him, and devils trembled before, for they knew him.
If we speak of Jesus Christ being the eternal Son of God, then we must be able to comprehensibly define our terms used or confess that we are using terms that teach doctrines against the Son of God, of which the eternal Sonship position does, for no man living can comprehensibly define the eternal Sonship position, without making Jesus a begotten god. It can not be done.
The sum of this point is this: Those that use terms, such as eternal Sonship, eternal generation, in relation to God or Christ, ought at least to be able and willing to tell their own meaning in the use of those terms, or not use them. Fair enough?
I want to give you not only reasons why we reject the eternal Sonship, but would like to ask you, or anyone some questions, I have about ten or so. Consider:
When stripped of all artificial verbiage, the naked question returns: Is Jesus Christ absolutely, eternally independently, underived, the very Supreme and eternal God, that the word of God declares him to be?
We say, yes he is! That is why we must reject eternal generation in any way presented to us by men who profess to be wise. I would like to consider a few reasons why I know that the eternal Sonship position is a serious error.
Reason #1~The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer. I'm putting my next statement this in a box quote to emphasize its important and to isolate it so one can fully ponder the words carefully and think on them before responding:
Reason #2~If Jesus Christ be the eternal Son of God, or if he was eternally begotten/generated, according to his Divine nature, then he CAN NOT be the Eternal God that inhabiteth eternity.
We know that Jesus Christ was both God that inhabiteth eternity and the Son of God that had a beginning when he was conceived by the Holy Ghost!
The eternal Sonship position is against the witness of God himself concerning his Son.
The incarnate Sonship protects the Deity of the Son of God, and confesses that he is both the I am that I am, and the Son of God and the Son of man.
I have more to come to prove that Jesus was not a Son before Genesis 1:1. Why I am preparing more reasons, one quick question for I readers: "Who was Jesus' eternal mother?" I have heard many discombobulated expressions trying to prove the eternal Sonship doctrine, by men whom I have respect toward, that one wonders~ "why Sir, do you not just stay with the scriptures and save yourself the shame of showing your ignorance of spiritual things".
Coming back to finish my this section.
civic, let me begin this by addressing a few points before I begin to consider opposing scriptures to the position I see.
Some will ask: Why do you reject and deny the eternal Sonship doctrine establish formally and held by the Catholic church which is succinctly expressed in the profession of faith or credo called the Nicene Creed:
"I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen."
We do not hold to this heresy as proclaimed in this Creed by the Catholic church.
Because Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the Godman that did not exist as such until His incarnation in the womb of the virgin (Luke 1:30-35). The "central doctrine" of the New Testament is that Jesus is the Son of God (Matt 16:13-18; Acts 8:37; I John 5:4-5). The question must be asked, when did Jesus Christ of Nazareth come into existence? We maintain that Jesus of Nazareth came into existence at His conception in Mary. While His divine nature, the Word of God, was eternal God, Jehovah Himself, His human nature had a very definite beginning in the fullness of time and was made by a woman (Gal 4:4).
The language and doctrine of Origen’s eternal generation of the Son of God are pagan and anti-Christian heresies. We have no use for them or any council such as Nicea or any church such as Rome or Baptists that adopt either. We totally reject Origen’s “begotten god” in John 1:18 (see the NASB) and his “a god” in John 1:1 (see the NWT). We believe Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the Son of God – fully God and fully man – but not eternally generated in any sense.
A few questions that need to be considered.
Question #1~ Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? The very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Most High God? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind.
The answer to that questions is NO! So how can one believe in eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ? A Sonship relationship that was before the biblical testimony of Luke 1:11-35. I must stand upon God's own testimony of the conception of the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of Man.
Question #2~ Can there be true Divinity where any of these attributes are wanting in question #1? Surely not.
And we ask~"How can eternal generation of the Son of God be accepted as biblical truth, and for those still holding such doctrine still contend that Jesus Christ is self-existence and independent"? We shall prove that this is an impossibility and a contradiction of terms used in the eternal Sonship defense.
Those that hold to the incarnate Sonship and reject the eternal Sonship are the only ones that can explain and make sense that Jesus Christ is the Everlasting Father of all things~the I AM THAT I AM. We contend that Jesus Christ the Son of God possessed real Divinity that was underived in any sense. There is no possible medium. Either it is so, or not so. We know that Jesus Christ was God manifested in flesh before Jews and Gentiles and that he preached unto both, and both rejected him, and devils trembled before, for they knew him.
If we speak of Jesus Christ being the eternal Son of God, then we must be able to comprehensibly define our terms used or confess that we are using terms that teach doctrines against the Son of God, of which the eternal Sonship position does, for no man living can comprehensibly define the eternal Sonship position, without making Jesus a begotten god. It can not be done.
The sum of this point is this: Those that use terms, such as eternal Sonship, eternal generation, in relation to God or Christ, ought at least to be able and willing to tell their own meaning in the use of those terms, or not use them. Fair enough?
I want to give you not only reasons why we reject the eternal Sonship, but would like to ask you, or anyone some questions, I have about ten or so. Consider:
When stripped of all artificial verbiage, the naked question returns: Is Jesus Christ absolutely, eternally independently, underived, the very Supreme and eternal God, that the word of God declares him to be?
We say, yes he is! That is why we must reject eternal generation in any way presented to us by men who profess to be wise. I would like to consider a few reasons why I know that the eternal Sonship position is a serious error.
Reason #1~The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer. I'm putting my next statement this in a box quote to emphasize its important and to isolate it so one can fully ponder the words carefully and think on them before responding:
Reason #2~If Jesus Christ be the eternal Son of God, or if he was eternally begotten/generated, according to his Divine nature, then he CAN NOT be the Eternal God that inhabiteth eternity.
We know that Jesus Christ was both God that inhabiteth eternity and the Son of God that had a beginning when he was conceived by the Holy Ghost!
The eternal Sonship position is against the witness of God himself concerning his Son.
The incarnate Sonship protects the Deity of the Son of God, and confesses that he is both the I am that I am, and the Son of God and the Son of man.
I have more to come to prove that Jesus was not a Son before Genesis 1:1. Why I am preparing more reasons, one quick question for I readers: "Who was Jesus' eternal mother?" I have heard many discombobulated expressions trying to prove the eternal Sonship doctrine, by men whom I have respect toward, that one wonders~ "why Sir, do you not just stay with the scriptures and save yourself the shame of showing your ignorance of spiritual things".
Coming back to finish my this section.
Continue from: #133
Jesus became the Son of God at the same time he became the Son of man. We have the word of God to support that witness that we just gave. Yet, man's witness goes against God's testimony concerning his Son. As for me and my house, we will believe God's own testimony over man's.
Question #3~ "What part of Jesus Christ was derived from God?"
Surely not his Divine Nature! if One God can be derived, why not many? Many Mighty Gods and Everlasting Fathers, (there not many, but ONE, revealed to us as three, according to their work in the affairs of creation, and the salvation of the elect seed of Jesus Christ) many first Causes, and last End of all things! The Eternal Spirit of God is not capable of diminution or divisibility, that is an impossibility. This would be going against what his word teaches us, that we should have no other gods before Him.
Pagans believed in the power of propagation of their gods, we as Bible Christians do not. The Bible demands belief in nothing of this kind, relative to our heavenly Father.
Question #4~ "Is it so, that there are many representations in the scriptures that teach that the Godhead in some mysterious sense is three, yet essentially ONE?"
It is very much so. "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost be with you all. Amen" 2 Corinthians 13:14....The holy scriptures teaches us that in some mysterious scriptural sense, the Godhead are three, yet we know that there are titles, found in the scriptures of the name of God, that can be applied to each one of them individually, interchangeable, and equally. This is very important to remember. In innumerable scriptures, God, and Christ, are spoken of as two persons, yet are presented in an essential unity as one; so that each may affirm, that there is no other God besides Himself. This is important to remember. There are not two distinct Gods~together, they are ONE God!
The Divine nature of Christ, does all that God does equally~he is not absent; nor is he another God, but and the same God! And Yet, there is a personal and real distinction between God the Eternal Spirit, and Jesus his Son. The deity of Jesus Christ is not and cannot be excluded from any transactions done by God before the creation of the world, during the OT times before the birth of Jesus, and throughout eternity. They are essential ONE and CAN NOT be separated into two or three.
When we read that the Son created the worlds, then we understand that that is speaking of his Divine Nature ONLY, of being the I am THAT I AM. This is not really too deep, just following God's own witness to us concerning these things and giving the scriptures their proper senses.
When reading such scriptures as 1 Peter 1:11; 1st Corinthians 10:4-5; Romans 8:9; and 1st Peter 3:18-19; and others, then we understand that Jesus, the Son of God and the Son of Man (which is used twice as many times as the Son of God in the bible) was a complex person, both God, and man, and the Divine Nature of Jesus Christ is none other than the One and True God that is from everlasting to everlasting, and these two in the word of God are essentially and scripturally by God's own testimony ONE.
Question #5~ "Can the Most High thus address a derived, dependent being, as God, without establishing idolatry?"
Absolutely not! Yet the Most High God did address his Son as God.
Hebrews 1:8~ Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne O God, is forever and ever."
So, Jesus is the Son, yet is God that shall reign forever and ever. That will come to pass the scriptures that are written: "Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God." Matthew 5:8 and many more~Rev. 21:3,22,23; Rev. 22:3,4,9,16,19-20.
Question #6~ "Did Paul, or any other apostles, or prophets, ever lead us to believe that Jesus and God, were not essentially one." Never! But, what they taught us plainly was that Jesus was indeed God blessed for ever. Paul said these words: Whose are the fathers, of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever." ~Romans 9:5
Question #7~"Can a derived and dependent person be Almighty?"
Most certainly not! Yet, Jesus was the mighty God promised by the prophets as we read from Isaiah 9:6. Jesus called himself the Almighty, listen to his own words: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:1:8
If Jesus was the beginning of all things, and he was, then he was not the eternal Son, because, the word son, by definition, proves a beginning~if he is Almighty, and he is, then no one is greater than he is, none. He alone will be worshiped in that world to come, for he will reign as King forever more, world without end.
Question #8~From the great work, which was assigned to Jesus Christ, light is cast upon this important subject at hand. So we ask the conscience of every person taught in the sentiments of the gospel~Was not an infinite atonement necessary and demanded, according to the word of God, to take away our sins?" Again, "was not the righteousness of a perfect man, whose righteousness was equal to God, necessary to avail for sinful and lost man; in order to redeem him from sin and condemnation and to give the redeem person an entitlement to eternal life? Only Jesus Christ, who was both the Son of God, and as well, the Son of Man, could have been that perfect atonement for our sins. It was by one man that sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and death passed upon all men, because all sinned in their father Adam. Jesus Christ was that perfect man, for he was the Son of God, begotten by him in the womb of a virgin named Mary.
We have the record of his birth recorded for us in the holy scriptures. The only record /witness, that we have of God's Son coming into being the Son of God, there is not another, but the one recorded in Luke 1. Any other witness is a lie and only vain speculations of man not receiving the witness of the Spirit of God, but are guilty of following what others teach concerning the Sonship of God's holy child.
Question #9~"Did Jesus Christ have a beginning?~Or, in order for us to help those who reading this to better follow God's word/witness to us, concerning His Son, we could ask also ask this question, with the one at the beginning of this sentence: Did Jesus have a beginning?"
The scriptures very carefully divide and protect the identity of Jesus Christ; and so should we. The questions above demand for us to stay within the bounds of the scriptures, as we should always do, to find our answers; for the answers to our questions are: yes and no.
Most should know that the name of Christ, speaks to his deity, and proves that he was indeed the Son of the Living God; whereas Jesus, is his earthly name, and speaks and proves his humanity. There was, and can be, only one Jesus Christ; for God had only one begotten Son, begotten by the power of the Highest in a womb of a virgin woman of Adam's race, named Mary.
Jesus Christ had no beginning! The scriptures are very plain concerning this truth.
1 John 1:1..."That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life."
This scripture gets lost among people's favorites, yet this scripture is powerful to the regenerate mind and lover of the word of God.
The God that created all things that have always been from the beginning, or from eternity, made himself visible, to human beings in the person of His Son, whom he had begotten, by his Spirit in the womb of Mary. The Infinite, Glorious Spirit, purpose and planned every perfect detail of his holy event~"God was manifested in the flesh"~ seen of angels, (for the first time!) and preached unto sinners, and allowed men like John to lay his head on his chest, and allowed sinners to even spit in his face! I cannot even begin to express, nor do I have the ability, to express in words, how great our God is, and the length he went to redeem his chosen race!
John said it so plain: "that which was from the beginning." There is no room for debate; Jesus Christ was the Word of Life, that had no beginning! The eternal Sonship doctrine by definition goes against the scriptures before us. By definition, (as we have proven,) that eternal and son cannot be used together, for son, by definition, brings with it a beginning, or words cease to have any meaning, and anyone can use words to teach anything!
1 John 2:13a.... "I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning...."
John 1:1...."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD."
In 1 John 1:1~John called Jesus Christ, the Word of life. Paul said by him all things consist, for he created all things, for he alone is the Word of Life. Paul said again, "Who is the image of the invisible God-" Colossians 1:15
Jesus Christ is not the second person of the Trinity~HE IS GOD! period! He was not conceived in the beginning~he was God FROM THE BEGINNING that created all things!
John 1:13.... "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
God was made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. The Word was not begotten by the power of the Highest, Jesus, the Son of God was begotten. The Word that was from the beginning, joined himself to the tabernacle (fleshly body of Jesus) and lived among men. The Eternal Spirit of God never ceased to be who he is~A SPIRIT that inhabiteth eternity, who rules over all of his creation! Read Isaiah 57:15 and John 4:24!!
Jesus had a beginning, and it is clearly revealed for us in the NT from Luke 1. We know his mother and who his suppose father~Joseph. We know where he lived and where he died. Jesus was fully man and fully God, and two natures never interfere with his work of redemption but worked in perfect harmony to accomplish God's eternal purpose which he purposed in himself. Eph. 1:9
Later....RB
Jesus became the Son of God at the same time he became the Son of man. We have the word of God to support that witness that we just gave. Yet, man's witness goes against God's testimony concerning his Son. As for me and my house, we will believe God's own testimony over man's.
Question #3~ "What part of Jesus Christ was derived from God?"
Surely not his Divine Nature! if One God can be derived, why not many? Many Mighty Gods and Everlasting Fathers, (there not many, but ONE, revealed to us as three, according to their work in the affairs of creation, and the salvation of the elect seed of Jesus Christ) many first Causes, and last End of all things! The Eternal Spirit of God is not capable of diminution or divisibility, that is an impossibility. This would be going against what his word teaches us, that we should have no other gods before Him.
Pagans believed in the power of propagation of their gods, we as Bible Christians do not. The Bible demands belief in nothing of this kind, relative to our heavenly Father.
Question #4~ "Is it so, that there are many representations in the scriptures that teach that the Godhead in some mysterious sense is three, yet essentially ONE?"
It is very much so. "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost be with you all. Amen" 2 Corinthians 13:14....The holy scriptures teaches us that in some mysterious scriptural sense, the Godhead are three, yet we know that there are titles, found in the scriptures of the name of God, that can be applied to each one of them individually, interchangeable, and equally. This is very important to remember. In innumerable scriptures, God, and Christ, are spoken of as two persons, yet are presented in an essential unity as one; so that each may affirm, that there is no other God besides Himself. This is important to remember. There are not two distinct Gods~together, they are ONE God!
The Divine nature of Christ, does all that God does equally~he is not absent; nor is he another God, but and the same God! And Yet, there is a personal and real distinction between God the Eternal Spirit, and Jesus his Son. The deity of Jesus Christ is not and cannot be excluded from any transactions done by God before the creation of the world, during the OT times before the birth of Jesus, and throughout eternity. They are essential ONE and CAN NOT be separated into two or three.
When we read that the Son created the worlds, then we understand that that is speaking of his Divine Nature ONLY, of being the I am THAT I AM. This is not really too deep, just following God's own witness to us concerning these things and giving the scriptures their proper senses.
When reading such scriptures as 1 Peter 1:11; 1st Corinthians 10:4-5; Romans 8:9; and 1st Peter 3:18-19; and others, then we understand that Jesus, the Son of God and the Son of Man (which is used twice as many times as the Son of God in the bible) was a complex person, both God, and man, and the Divine Nature of Jesus Christ is none other than the One and True God that is from everlasting to everlasting, and these two in the word of God are essentially and scripturally by God's own testimony ONE.
Question #5~ "Can the Most High thus address a derived, dependent being, as God, without establishing idolatry?"
Absolutely not! Yet the Most High God did address his Son as God.
Hebrews 1:8~ Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne O God, is forever and ever."
So, Jesus is the Son, yet is God that shall reign forever and ever. That will come to pass the scriptures that are written: "Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God." Matthew 5:8 and many more~Rev. 21:3,22,23; Rev. 22:3,4,9,16,19-20.
Question #6~ "Did Paul, or any other apostles, or prophets, ever lead us to believe that Jesus and God, were not essentially one." Never! But, what they taught us plainly was that Jesus was indeed God blessed for ever. Paul said these words: Whose are the fathers, of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever." ~Romans 9:5
Question #7~"Can a derived and dependent person be Almighty?"
Most certainly not! Yet, Jesus was the mighty God promised by the prophets as we read from Isaiah 9:6. Jesus called himself the Almighty, listen to his own words: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:1:8
If Jesus was the beginning of all things, and he was, then he was not the eternal Son, because, the word son, by definition, proves a beginning~if he is Almighty, and he is, then no one is greater than he is, none. He alone will be worshiped in that world to come, for he will reign as King forever more, world without end.
Question #8~From the great work, which was assigned to Jesus Christ, light is cast upon this important subject at hand. So we ask the conscience of every person taught in the sentiments of the gospel~Was not an infinite atonement necessary and demanded, according to the word of God, to take away our sins?" Again, "was not the righteousness of a perfect man, whose righteousness was equal to God, necessary to avail for sinful and lost man; in order to redeem him from sin and condemnation and to give the redeem person an entitlement to eternal life? Only Jesus Christ, who was both the Son of God, and as well, the Son of Man, could have been that perfect atonement for our sins. It was by one man that sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and death passed upon all men, because all sinned in their father Adam. Jesus Christ was that perfect man, for he was the Son of God, begotten by him in the womb of a virgin named Mary.
We have the record of his birth recorded for us in the holy scriptures. The only record /witness, that we have of God's Son coming into being the Son of God, there is not another, but the one recorded in Luke 1. Any other witness is a lie and only vain speculations of man not receiving the witness of the Spirit of God, but are guilty of following what others teach concerning the Sonship of God's holy child.
Question #9~"Did Jesus Christ have a beginning?~Or, in order for us to help those who reading this to better follow God's word/witness to us, concerning His Son, we could ask also ask this question, with the one at the beginning of this sentence: Did Jesus have a beginning?"
The scriptures very carefully divide and protect the identity of Jesus Christ; and so should we. The questions above demand for us to stay within the bounds of the scriptures, as we should always do, to find our answers; for the answers to our questions are: yes and no.
Most should know that the name of Christ, speaks to his deity, and proves that he was indeed the Son of the Living God; whereas Jesus, is his earthly name, and speaks and proves his humanity. There was, and can be, only one Jesus Christ; for God had only one begotten Son, begotten by the power of the Highest in a womb of a virgin woman of Adam's race, named Mary.
Jesus Christ had no beginning! The scriptures are very plain concerning this truth.
1 John 1:1..."That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life."
This scripture gets lost among people's favorites, yet this scripture is powerful to the regenerate mind and lover of the word of God.
The God that created all things that have always been from the beginning, or from eternity, made himself visible, to human beings in the person of His Son, whom he had begotten, by his Spirit in the womb of Mary. The Infinite, Glorious Spirit, purpose and planned every perfect detail of his holy event~"God was manifested in the flesh"~ seen of angels, (for the first time!) and preached unto sinners, and allowed men like John to lay his head on his chest, and allowed sinners to even spit in his face! I cannot even begin to express, nor do I have the ability, to express in words, how great our God is, and the length he went to redeem his chosen race!
John said it so plain: "that which was from the beginning." There is no room for debate; Jesus Christ was the Word of Life, that had no beginning! The eternal Sonship doctrine by definition goes against the scriptures before us. By definition, (as we have proven,) that eternal and son cannot be used together, for son, by definition, brings with it a beginning, or words cease to have any meaning, and anyone can use words to teach anything!
1 John 2:13a.... "I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning...."
John 1:1...."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD."
In 1 John 1:1~John called Jesus Christ, the Word of life. Paul said by him all things consist, for he created all things, for he alone is the Word of Life. Paul said again, "Who is the image of the invisible God-" Colossians 1:15
Jesus Christ is not the second person of the Trinity~HE IS GOD! period! He was not conceived in the beginning~he was God FROM THE BEGINNING that created all things!
John 1:13.... "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
God was made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. The Word was not begotten by the power of the Highest, Jesus, the Son of God was begotten. The Word that was from the beginning, joined himself to the tabernacle (fleshly body of Jesus) and lived among men. The Eternal Spirit of God never ceased to be who he is~A SPIRIT that inhabiteth eternity, who rules over all of his creation! Read Isaiah 57:15 and John 4:24!!
Jesus had a beginning, and it is clearly revealed for us in the NT from Luke 1. We know his mother and who his suppose father~Joseph. We know where he lived and where he died. Jesus was fully man and fully God, and two natures never interfere with his work of redemption but worked in perfect harmony to accomplish God's eternal purpose which he purposed in himself. Eph. 1:9
Later....RB
civic
Active Member
First of all the creed is not Scripture, the inspired word of God. Sola Scripture is my modus operadi when it comes to the Godhead.
I'm discussing Scripture and what Jesus declared about Himself. Then what the Apostles said about Him.
I understand what you are trying to say, but you haven't really said it correctly. The opening lines of John's gospel gives us the truth of it.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
In the beginning [He] was the Word, not the Son. Strictly speaking, He became the Son when He took on the flesh and blood of a human being. That is the only way the title, The Son, makes any sense.
We could, of course, present the many opinions of what is meant by the title, The Word. But it is only important here to know and understand that He is one of the eternal three of the Triune God.
civic
Active Member
You cannot take a solitary verse and isolate it from the rest of the Bible. Here is the same time prior to creation in eternity past. Notice it says the Son.
John 17:1, 5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Notice above its the Son with the Father sharing the same glory together with Hm before creation, before the world came into existence. The same below. The Word who was God is the Son. Scripture interprets scripture. Hermenuetics 101.
Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son).
Hebrews 1:8-12
But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9;You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.
And Here Jesus who is both God and man says that the Father sent the Son. This shows the Son existing before becoming man.
John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.
John tells us the same below:
1 John 4:9
This is how God’s love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him.
1 John 4:10
10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.
As does Paul below:
Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh,
Galatians 4:4-5
But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, / to redeem those under the law, that we might receive our adoption as sons.
You cannot send Someone who does not exist, ie the Son.
hope this helps !!!
The Word who was God, became The Son.
It is a title, an identifier, rather than an absolute description. In fact that is true for all three, for The Father, for The Son and for The Holy Spirit. The title, The Son, only makes sense as a descriptor of the physical being of Jesus.
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