FreeInChrist
Active Member
A statement of truth, truly stated.
Our heavenly Father will never force us to do anything.... He , in his love, provided us a choice. He provided us with a ram. We are free to accept or reject.
Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".
- Thread starter MTMattie
- Start date
Our heavenly Father will never force us to do anything.... He , in his love, provided us a choice. He provided us with a ram. We are free to accept or reject.
brightfame52
Active Member
He did it for his church, his sheep, God's elect, nowhere is Christ's death said to be for All mankind, that is all without exception ,that's not biblical, and Christ Death produced saving effects.
Kokomo
Active Member
His death makes salvation available to all people, though each individual can choose to accept or reject it through faith.
Your belief in "limited atonement" is one of the ways you are deceived by Calvinism.
“is the expiation for our sins and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). The epistle to the Hebrews likewise says that Jesus lowered himself “so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one” (Heb. 2:5).
Your belief in "limited atonement" is one of the ways you are deceived by Calvinism.
“is the expiation for our sins and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). The epistle to the Hebrews likewise says that Jesus lowered himself “so that by the grace of God he might taste death for every one” (Heb. 2:5).
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Jesus Died Once For All
1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
Romans 6:10
For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
Hebrews 10:10
And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
John 1:29
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Hebrews 9:26
For then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Romans 5:8
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Hebrews 10:12
But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
John 3:16-17
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
2 Corinthians 5:15
And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
1 John 3:16
By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.
1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
2 Corinthians 5:14
For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;
Hebrews 7:27
He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.
1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
Romans 5:6
For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
John 5:21
For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.
brightfame52
Active Member
That's the saved from amongst not only the Jews but also from among the Gentiles, the emphasis is on the scope of the proprititionary sacrifice for sin
brightfame52
Active Member
This is limited atonement, the we in this verse were by His death/offering, sanctified once and for all, the word sanctified is a perfect tense. Now is all mankind without expectation sanctified? No
FreeInChrist
Active Member
You wish
FreeInChrist
Active Member
FreeInChrist
Active Member
How can someone know so much about something without knowing about it at all........?
brightfame52
Active Member
It's the truth
FreeInChrist
Active Member
You wish.
brightfame52
Active Member
I know
FreeInChrist
Active Member
@praise_yeshua ,
I tagged you here because I have been having a wonderful visit with Grok.
So many answered questions of Free Will, Foreknowledge and Predestination.
I can almost forgive Elon for leaving his DC post and cutting expenses for getting this into our hands.
Many thanks for the tip..............
I tagged you here because I have been having a wonderful visit with Grok.
So many answered questions of Free Will, Foreknowledge and Predestination.
I can almost forgive Elon for leaving his DC post and cutting expenses for getting this into our hands.
Many thanks for the tip..............
FreeInChrist
Active Member
@brightfame52
I have been having a great visit with Grok on certain subjects this afternoon.... I feel I should share what he said
on predestination, foreknowledge and freewill.... there is a lot here, but I did not cut any so you cannot accuse me of
trying to influence any part.
Starting with the scripture Eph 2:8
If you'd like the full chapter, a different translation, or how this applies practically, just ask!
Does Eph 2:8 mean you have been predestined?
No, Ephesians 2:8 itself does not teach predestination. It focuses on how salvation happens (by grace through faith as a gift), not who is chosen beforehand.
Want a simple diagram or Calvinist/Arminian views on this? Just say!
Where does freewill fit in with salvation?
Great question—free will and salvation are debated across Christian traditions, and Ephesians gives clues without spelling out a full theory. Let’s break it down biblically, simply, and honestly.
Takeaway:
So:
Both agree:
text
But with free will does not faith come first before salvation rather then God predestining us
Yes — in the foreknowledge (Arminian) view, faith comes first, and then God saves (and predestines) based on that foreseen faith.
Let’s make this crystal clear with a simple timeline.
No — the Bible says faith is not a work:
Faith = trusting, receiving, resting — not earning.
Yes — with free will (in the foreknowledge view):
This keeps:
I have been having a great visit with Grok on certain subjects this afternoon.... I feel I should share what he said
on predestination, foreknowledge and freewill.... there is a lot here, but I did not cut any so you cannot accuse me of
trying to influence any part.
Starting with the scripture Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith meaning
The phrase comes from Ephesians 2:8 (ESV):Plain-English Breakdown
- "By grace": Salvation (being rescued from sin and its consequences) is God's unearned favor—He initiates and provides it freely, not because we deserve it.
- "You have been saved": This is a done deal for believers; it's already accomplished through Jesus' death and resurrection.
- "Through faith": The channel or means by which we receive this grace—simply trusting in Jesus, not working for it.
Key Idea
Salvation is 100% God's gift, received by faith alone. No good deeds, rituals, or merit can earn it (see v. 9: "not a result of works, so that no one may boast").Quick Context
Paul is writing to Gentile Christians in Ephesus, reminding them they were once "dead in trespasses" (v. 1–5) but are now alive in Christ—purely by grace.If you'd like the full chapter, a different translation, or how this applies practically, just ask!
Does Eph 2:8 mean you have been predestined?
No, Ephesians 2:8 itself does not teach predestination. It focuses on how salvation happens (by grace through faith as a gift), not who is chosen beforehand.
Predestination in Ephesians
The idea of predestination appears earlier in Ephesians 1, not chapter 2:| Verse | Key Text (ESV) | Meaning |
|---|---|---|
| 1:4–5 | "...he chose us in him before the foundation of the world... In love he predestined us for adoption..." | God chose and planned in advance for believers to become His children. |
| 1:11 | "...having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will..." | God’s sovereign plan includes who will inherit salvation. |
So What’s the Difference?
| Chapter | Focus |
|---|---|
| Ephesians 1 | Who God chose and why (predestination, election). |
| Ephesians 2 | How salvation is received (grace → faith → gift). |
Reconciling Both
- Eph 1: God sovereignly decides who will be saved (predestination).
- Eph 2: Humans receive it by trusting Christ (faith)—and even that faith is a gift, not self-generated.
- Yes, Ephesians teaches predestination—but in chapter 1.
- No, 2:8 does not mention it; it explains the mechanism of salvation, not the origin of God’s choice.
Want a simple diagram or Calvinist/Arminian views on this? Just say!
Where does freewill fit in with salvation?
Great question—free will and salvation are debated across Christian traditions, and Ephesians gives clues without spelling out a full theory. Let’s break it down biblically, simply, and honestly.
1. What Ephesians Actually Says
| Verse | Key Point |
|---|---|
| Eph 2:8 | Saved by grace through faith — and this (the whole thing) is God’s gift. |
| Eph 1:4–5 | God chose/predestined us before the world began. |
| Eph 2:1–3 | We were dead in sin, following Satan, by nature children of wrath. |
Takeaway:
- We were spiritually dead — not neutral, not slightly sick.
- God initiated everything: He made us alive (v.5), gave grace, gave faith.
- No verse in Ephesians says we "chose God first" with unaided free will.
2. So Where’s Free Will?
The Bible never uses the term "free will" in relation to salvation, but it does show human responsibility:| Example | Verse | Meaning |
|---|---|---|
| Repent & Believe | Mark 1:15 | Jesus commands response — implies ability to obey or reject. |
| Choose This Day | Joshua 24:15 | People are held accountable for choices. |
| Whoever Believes | John 3:16 | Salvation is offered — belief is required. |
So:
- Yes — Humans must believe, and that choice is real and meaningful.
- No — That choice is not self-generated; dead people don’t choose life unless God first makes them alive (Eph 2:5).
3. Two Major Views (Simplified)
| View | Core Idea | Key Verse |
|---|---|---|
| Calvinism (Reformed) | God unconditionally elects some. Faith is a gift given only to the elect. Free will exists, but is bound by sin until God frees it. | Eph 2:8 – “this is not your own doing” |
| Arminianism | God offers grace to all. People can freely accept or reject. Faith comes before regeneration. | John 3:16 – “whoever believes” |
Both agree:
- Salvation is by grace alone.
- We must believe.
- We cannot save ourselves.
- Order: Does faith cause new birth? Or does new birth enable faith?
- Scope: Is grace irresistible (Calvin) or resistible (Arminian)?
4. A Balanced Biblical Picture
Think of it like this:text
[Spiritual Death] → God gives life & faith (Eph 2:5,8) → We believe (real choice) → Salvation
- God raises the dead → We respond with faith.
- Our "free will" is real, but liberated by grace — not independent.
Final Answer
Free will fits in like this:
- You must trust Christ — that choice is yours and real.
- But you only choose Him because God first chose you, gave you life, and granted faith (Eph 1–2).
- No boasting — it’s all grace.
- No passivity — you must believe.
Want a one-page chart comparing views? Or how to explain this to a friend? Just ask.
But with free will does not faith come first before salvation rather then God predestining us
Yes — in the foreknowledge (Arminian) view, faith comes first, and then God saves (and predestines) based on that foreseen faith.
Let’s make this crystal clear with a simple timeline.
Foreknowledge View: Order of Salvation (Ordo Salutis)
| Step | What Happens | Who Acts First? |
|---|---|---|
| 1. God offers grace to all | Prevenient grace restores ability to respond (John 12:32; Titus 2:11). | God |
| 2. You freely believe | You hear the gospel and choose to trust Christ. | You |
| 3. God saves & justifies | The moment you believe, God declares you righteous. | God |
| 4. God predestines | Based on foreseen faith, He planned your salvation before time. | God (in eternity past) |
Bible Support (Step-by-Step)
| Step | Verse | Meaning |
|---|---|---|
| 1. Grace to all | Titus 2:11 – “The grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.” | God enables everyone to respond. |
| 2. Faith first | Romans 4:5 – “To the one who does not work but believes... his faith is counted as righteousness.” | Faith precedes being made right with God. |
| 3. Saved by faith | Ephesians 2:8 – “By grace... through faith.” | Faith is the means, not the cause. |
| 4. Predestination based on foreknowledge | Romans 8:29 – “Those whom he foreknew, he also predestined.” | God’s choice is conditioned on foreseen belief. |
Analogy: The Open Door
- God opens the door for everyone (prevenient grace).
- You walk through by faith.
- The moment you do, God adopts you.
- Before the world began, He knew you’d walk through — so He prepared your room.
How This Differs from Calvinism
View Order Who Decides First? Arminian (Foreknowledge) Grace → Faith → Salvation → (Predestined based on faith) You believe first Calvinist (Unconditional) Regeneration → Faith → Salvation → (Predestined unconditionally) God gives faith first
| View | Order | Who Decides First? |
|---|---|---|
| Arminian (Foreknowledge) | Grace → Faith → Salvation → (Predestined based on faith) | You believe first |
| Calvinist (Unconditional) | Regeneration → Faith → Salvation → (Predestined unconditionally) | God gives faith first |
Common Confusion: “Isn’t Faith a Work?”
No — the Bible says faith is not a work:
Faith = trusting, receiving, resting — not earning.
Final Answer
Yes — with free will (in the foreknowledge view):
- Faith comes before salvation (you believe → God saves).
- Predestination is God’s response to your foreseen faith, not the cause of it.
- God acts first (with grace), but you respond with faith.
This keeps:
- Human responsibility (you must believe).
- God’s sovereignty (He enables and foreknows).
- Grace alone (even faith is a gift-enabled response).
brightfame52
Active Member
That's your business
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Not when it involved you.
Kokomo
Active Member
rude dude, where is the love? “love… is kind”
The “L” in TULIP represents one more integral theory in Calvin’s scheme of salvation: “the doctrine which limits the atonement to... the elect.”
This concept follows directly from the limitation Calvinists place upon God’s love in spite of the fact that it, like every facet of His Being, is infinite.
One of their prominent apologists declares, “The Bible teaches again and again that God does not love all people with the same love...‘ loved by God’ is not applied to the world but only to the saints... Romans 1: 7.”
Same love? But love is love— and “love… is kind” (1 Corinthians 13: 4). Calvin himself declared, “All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation....”
Is it loving or kind to “preordain to… eternal damnation”?
FreeInChrist
Active Member
@Kokomo
the unfortunate facts are that not all are necessarily kind on here.... Calvinist are seemingly less kind I have observed.
Even so are some sitting in the pews on Sunday morning. (My church, not my beliefs)
Used to bother me, but not so much anymore...
Calvin had his head on backwards I think for he made not a lot of sense....
brightfame52
Active Member
How's that I did not involve myself
Kokomo
Active Member
To late for that cop out, you involve yourself here everyday. So don't try to evade responsibility or back out by making an excuse.
