Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".

[atpollard]

yet we were all children of wrath just like the rest of them as stated in Ephesians 2.

I think about 50% of my "long answer" was dedicated to that point.
The other 50% was what God did about it ...

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, - [Ephesians 2:8]

[Since we are in Ephesians 2 ]

 

[brightfame52]

the context is the elect/chosen people of God- Israel, the Jews.

Not them only Rom 9:24

24Even u s, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[FreeInChrist]

@FreeInChrist

My plans got change, so I have a few minutes.

To answer your question I would say this: By choosing to create angels, and man, that within itself meant that none would continue in the state in which God created them UNLESS God prepared some to come unto a knowledge of Him by an election of grace. Also, we know, God was not under obligation to show mercy to any, by the fact that he did is of pure mercy.

It is by his pure mercy. But the fact remains if @brightfame52 is correct... that
God made some as vessels of wrath and some as vessels of mercy.

Your answer does not answer my question of WHY?

Red.... You have always maintained God was love.....

Also, if God showed mercy to all, then we would have never known his wrath, and He is free to show his wrath if he chooses to do, and He did.

No one ever said he would or should show mercy to all.

With your beliefs in pre-destination.... that truly are coming closer and closer to Calvin..... though you will not admit that...
you are in an area that the road is extremely narrow . I know you teach your grandkids. Have you determined yet if all are chosen by the Heavenly Father? And if you feel yes, how do you definitively know for sure.

With my beliefs in free-will... I will grant you I have had a lifetime of study to come to this point in my life. My faith. Yes, there were ups and downs, but is that not true with everyone/

Consider: even in God's wrath there is more mercy that is in our mercy to others! So, what does man have to complain about? As though he is a righteous judge in such matters.

First of all, there is no such doctrine taught in God's word. The wicked shall perish, per so many scriptures. John 3:16; Luke 13:3; 2nd Peter 3:9, etc. No man will suffer as long as God is God, that is against plain scriptures. The wages of sin is DEATH, period, not eternity suffering in hell fire.

Wrong.........Sister, all had their perfect opportunity IN ADAM, their head and representative before God. God provided for all that perfect opportunity, and thereby, he is free of being charge of not giving man a chance to eternal life, we had that chance in Adam. Christ secured for God's elect what Adam could not do for his posterity! This is the true grace of God that so many reject.

No... we will still agree to disagree because me thinks still that when you exegete scripture it is overshadowed by your eisegesis

 

[FreeInChrist]

I did (including scripture) ... you quoted it and ignored it.

1. God made all PEOPLE.
2. ALL people freely chose to reject SALVATION and GOD.
3. GOD chose to save SOME people anyway.

Are you shaking your fist because "The way of the Lord is not fair." [Ezekiel 18:25,29; 33:17,20] that God created any people at all or because God is required to show mercy to everyone that hates Him?

God help me.........................................! Sigh.

This is not an either or.

God is required to do nothing. WE ARE

Calvin said God chose to make the reprobate. And the reprobate will be damned.

I simply wnt to know why.

Its OK... I give up... UNCLE.

Knowing how dastardly Adam turned out to be, I am surprised God continued with the human species because
he could have turned us into big old lovable teddybears but I guess it would not fly in the middle of the many stories of Good v Evil in the bible.

Yes. We are made the only way he ever intended. I just wonder why we are not allowed to know why.

 

[atpollard]

Calvin said God chose to make the reprobate. And the reprobate will be damned.

Who cares what Calvin said? He is dead. He was never an Apostle, so his writings are not Scripture. There were reformers a hundred years before Calvin (who were also just men) and reformers a hundred years after Calvin was buried (also just men).

We have the Word of God. Scripture is eternal truth.

Knowing how dastardly Adam turned out to be, I am surprised God continued with the human species because
he could have turned us into big old lovable teddybears but I guess it would not fly in the middle of the many stories of Good v Evil in the bible.

Yes. We are made the only way he ever intended. I just wonder why we are not allowed to know why.

If you want pure speculation, I am just a man (so my word means nothing, too) but think about what we would know of God if people were GOOD and God loved those that obeyed Him. Recall the accusations that Satan made to God in Job ... they would all be true.

Think of what we know about a God that chooses to LOVE a people that hate him, that chooses to redeem a people that have no remorse. Think about HOW MUCH GOD LOVED when we deserved (not merely none of it, but) the opposite of God's love.. Then think about how God created a faithful creature to obey ... and DIED to transform that rebellious creature into a beloved child (in eternal union with the TRINITY!)

If God destroyed EVERYONE (as we deserve), then there would be no revelation of His grace, mercy and Love.
If God saved EVERYONE, then there would be no evidence of his Justice and Wrath (and we would be unaware of the Love and Grace and Mercy that we had received ... it would just be "how things are").

So God does BOTH to display all His attributes and educate us on what we received (in contrast with what we deserved).
Their damnation is because of their actions, and God allows it to inspire our gratitude.

Just my W.A.G. opinion.

 

[TomL]

Yes I do

You do not hold that man is capable of faith before regeneration

You do not believe faith precedes justification.

 

[brightfame52]

You do not hold that man is capable of faith before regeneration

You do not believe faith precedes justification.

Correct faith is the fruit of the Spirit you have to be regenerated by the spirit of God to Believe in Christ

 

[TomL]

Correct faith is the fruit of the Spirit you have to be regenerated by the spirit of God to Believe in Christ

Wrong

One must believe before receiving the Spirit




Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.



Galatians 3:2 (LEB) — 2 I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?



Galatians 3:5 (LEB) — 5 Therefore does the one who gives you the Spirit and who works miracles among you do so by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?



Ephesians 1:13 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,



John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)



Galatians 3:14 (LEB) — 14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

[brightfame52]

Wrong

No it's not, faith is the fruit of the Spirit

 

[TomL]

No it's not, faith is the fruit of the Spirit

You failed to address the verses.

One must believe before receiving the Spirit




Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.



Galatians 3:2 (LEB) — 2 I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?



Galatians 3:5 (LEB) — 5 Therefore does the one who gives you the Spirit and who works miracles among you do so by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?



Ephesians 1:13 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,



John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)



Galatians 3:14 (LEB) — 14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

[atpollard]

God I love an "ordo salutis' debate ... as if our opinion (or time) mattered to God.

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist

With your beliefs in pre-destination.... that truly are coming closer and closer to Calvin..... though you will not admit that...

I have never said I disagree with John Calvin on election of grace and predestination, what I disagree with him on is regeneration~I teach God regenerates "solely" by Himself, without any means whatsoever, including the word of God and men preaching that word.

I know you teach your grandkids. Have you determined yet if all are chosen by the Heavenly Father? And if you feel yes, how do you definitively know for sure.

We shall see by their fruits, faith, love for God,, his word and his people. Some are showing that, some are not as of yet. I did not come to the faith until I was 26 years old, fifty two years ago, so, who knows, I may never know, the best I can do is what Paul said concerning Timothy:

2nd Timothy 1:5​

“When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.”

I got to run, since my fifteen year old granddaughter needs me to take her to Chick-fil-A for an interview.

 

[brightfame52]

You failed to address the verses.

I believe those verses, and faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 not one of them verses say faith is not a fruit of the Spirit

 

[TomL]

I believe those verses, and faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 not one of them verses say faith is not a fruit of the Spirit

What you fail to see is

One must believe before receiving the Spirit

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.



Galatians 3:2 (LEB) — 2 I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?



Galatians 3:5 (LEB) — 5 Therefore does the one who gives you the Spirit and who works miracles among you do so by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?



Ephesians 1:13 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,



John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)



Galatians 3:14 (LEB) — 14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

You cannot deny faith exists before the receiving of the Spirit

 

[brightfame52]

What you fail to see is

One must believe before receiving the Spirit

Faith is the fruit of the Spirit

 

[TomL]

Faith is the fruit of the Spirit

But not the faith that is needed to receive the Spirit


Receive the Spirit through faith

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 3:2 (LEB) — 2 I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 (LEB) — 5 Therefore does the one who gives you the Spirit and who works miracles among you do so by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ephesians 1:13 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)

Galatians 3:14 (LEB) — 14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

[brightfame52]

But not the faith that is needed to receive the Spirit

It's the faith that believes in Christ, it's the fruit of the Spirit Galatians 5:22

 

[TomL]

It's the faith that believes in Christ, it's the fruit of the Spirit Galatians 5:22

Sorry but one must first have faith so they may receive the Spirit




Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.



Galatians 3:2 (LEB) — 2 I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?



Galatians 3:5 (LEB) — 5 Therefore does the one who gives you the Spirit and who works miracles among you do so by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?



Ephesians 1:13 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,



John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)



Galatians 3:14 (LEB) — 14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Once again you ignore scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry but one must first have faith so they may receive the Spirit

Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Galatians 5:22

 

[civic]

What you fail to see is

One must believe before receiving the Spirit

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.



Galatians 3:2 (LEB) — 2 I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?



Galatians 3:5 (LEB) — 5 Therefore does the one who gives you the Spirit and who works miracles among you do so by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?



Ephesians 1:13 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,



John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)



Galatians 3:14 (LEB) — 14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

You cannot deny faith exists before the receiving of the Spirit

Amen faith precedes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.