You believe in salvation by the will of man.
So the will of man is not predetermined by the will of God. Man is on his own?
I dont see your point
Does God predetermine the will of man? (Yes/No)
You believe in salvation by the will of man.
So the will of man is not predetermined by the will of God. Man is on his own?
I dont see your point
Yes, and of devils, angelsDoes God predetermine the will of man? (Yes/No)
You believe in salvation by the will of man.
Does God predetermine the will of man? (Yes/No)
Yes, and of devils, angels
Nope they are robotsSo men, including you don't have their own will?
Yeah, but its not free from Gods predetermined plan for our livesSo men, including you don't have their own will?
Is it not interesting to note....?Nope they are robots
answer reply 442Does God predetermine the will of man? (Yes/No)
Yes, and of devils, angels
Possibility is that "God's Attribute Of Foreknowledge" is continuously "left out of the equation", eh?Wonder who here can explain the why for this one?
You mean his destiny after having gone evil?Is it not interesting to note....?
reply 441
answer reply 442
Would this not mean that the one we call Lucifer was predetermined to fall? Lucifer’s fall is described in two key Old Testament chapters—Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14
As a result of this heinous sin against God, Lucifer was banished from living in heaven (Isaiah 14:12). He became corrupt, and his name changed from Lucifer (“morning star”) to Satan (“adversary”). His power became completely perverted (Isaiah 14:12,16,17). And his destiny, following the second coming of Christ, is to be bound in a pit during the 1000-year millennial kingdom over which Christ will rule (Revelation 20:3), and eventually will be thrown into the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41).
Well. So it was all predetermined.
Wonder who here can explain the why for this one?![]()
And his destiny, following the second coming of Christ, is to be bound in a pit during the 1000-year millennial kingdom over which Christ will rule (Revelation 20:3), and eventually will be thrown into the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41).
Good point but not necessarily in this case. And thank you for your thoughts.Possibility is that "God's Attribute Of Foreknowledge" is continuously "left out of the equation", eh?
"For whom He Did Foreknow, he also did Predestinate..." (Romans 8:29 AV) Amen.
Does God predetermine the will of man? (Yes/No)
Yes, and of devils, angels
Would this not mean that the one we call Lucifer was predetermined to fall? Lucifer’s fall is described in two key Old Testament chapters—Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14
As a result of this heinous sin against God, Lucifer was banished from living in heaven (Isaiah 14:12). He became corrupt, and his name changed from Lucifer (“morning star”) to Satan (“adversary”). His power became completely perverted (Isaiah 14:12,16,17). And his destiny, following the second coming of Christ, is to be bound in a pit during the 1000-year millennial kingdom over which Christ will rule (Revelation 20:3), and eventually will be thrown into the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41).
Well. So it was all predetermined.
No. Not his destiiny.You mean his destiny after having gone evil?
I was pointing out that scripture does not state Lucifer was predetermined to fall. After the fall, however, his destiny was determined.No. Not his destiiny.
The fact that @brightfame52 said in reply to the question of
Kampioen said:
Does God predetermine the will of man? (Yes/No)
Brightfame 52 replied
brightfame52 said:
Yes, and of devils, angels
And I responded with
Would this not mean that the one we call Lucifer was predetermined to fall?
This is not about the destiny of Satan and his followers but that the very suggestion that when he, the one we call Lucifer, decided to as told in Isaiah 14:14 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'
If this was the predestiny of Satan.... then I think we would need to regroup and rethink things.
I know he had free will as did the 1/3 of the angels who followed him did.
I am fairly certain that is the reason Adam was made in the first p[lace (Another time for that)
But if it was a predestined plan of God's who certainly has all the rights to do as he wants, I am not saying he doesn't, I just think a lot of what we all have though on both sides of the predestined coin V free will need to be rethought.
Thank you, and you are correct.I was pointing out that scripture does not state Lucifer was predetermined to fall. After the fall, however, his destiny was determined.
Yes, I know.Thank you, and you are correct.
I was just playing off what brightfame52 believes. That every one and every thing from devils to mankind were predestined.
I dont believe that at all....
If it were true, then that would answer that question someone asked a while ago if God created evil.... because the only answer would be yes without an explanation as to why.
But thanks again for your thoughts.
We see "God determining EVIL" illustrated in Romans 1 in the passages following verse 18.If @brightfame52 is correct in his assertion that God determines the will of devils, that would be inclusive of the one that was kicked out of heaven with 1/3 of the rest of the angels and while I am a free will believer... only.... based from God's foreknowledge.... then if brightfame somehow is correct I was just wondering why God would have set things up like that that would have started before man ever walked this ball of mud called earth?
Um, nothing there states God determined all of man's evil.We see "God determining EVIL" illustrated in Romans 1 in the passages following verse 18.
Romans 1:18-23 [NLT]
18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. 21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. 23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.V.18-23 establish several important facts:Romans 1:24, 26, 28 [NLT]
- Men are to blame ("without excuse") for their evil
- God made TRUTH plain
- Men CHOSE to reject the TRUTH for a LIE.
24 So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. ... 26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. ... 28 Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done.Three specific times in the passages that follow it states "God abandoned them". In each case a pattern repeated:
- men chose evil over God
- God lifted his hand of restraint and allowed men greater freedom to pursue more evil desires
- men exercised this greater freedom to pursue greater depravity
And nothing there states God determined that evil, as even your words indicateWe see "God determining EVIL" illustrated in Romans 1 in the passages following verse 18.
Romans 1:18-23 [NLT]
18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. 21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. 23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.V.18-23 establish several important facts:
- Men are to blame ("without excuse") for their evil
- God made TRUTH plain
- Men CHOSE to reject the TRUTH for a LIE.
What does "So God abandoned them" mean in this context?Um, nothing there states God determined all of man's evil.
I can tell you it does not mean God determined their initial evil but that after it had happened he abandoned them.What does "So God abandoned them" mean in this context?
So you are resolute to remain ignorant and refuse to discuss.I can tell you it does not mean God determined their initial evil but that after it had happened he abandoned them.
That is somewhat deceptive leaning as ihn response to your questionSo you are resolute to remain ignorant and refuse to discuss.
Acknowledged as your right [and shaking off the dust.]
Mark 6:11 [NLT] "But if any place refuses to welcome you or listen to you, shake its dust from your feet as you leave to show that you have abandoned those people to their fate."
I repliedWhat does "So God abandoned them" mean in this context?
I can tell you it does not mean God determined their initial evil but that after it had happened he abandoned them.