Does God predetermine the will of man? (Yes/No)
Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".
- Thread starter MTMattie
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Does God predetermine the will of man? (Yes/No)
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes, and of devils, angels
So men, including you don't have their own will?
civic
Active Member
Nope they are robots
brightfame52
Active Member
Yeah, but its not free from Gods predetermined plan for our lives
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Is it not interesting to note....?
reply 441
answer reply 442
Would this not mean that the one we call Lucifer was predetermined to fall? Lucifer’s fall is described in two key Old Testament chapters—Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14
As a result of this heinous sin against God, Lucifer was banished from living in heaven (Isaiah 14:12). He became corrupt, and his name changed from Lucifer (“morning star”) to Satan (“adversary”). His power became completely perverted (Isaiah 14:12,16,17). And his destiny, following the second coming of Christ, is to be bound in a pit during the 1000-year millennial kingdom over which Christ will rule (Revelation 20:3), and eventually will be thrown into the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41).
Well. So it was all predetermined. Wonder who here can explain the why for this one?
Grace ambassador
Active Member
Possibility is that "God's Attribute Of Foreknowledge" is continuously "left out of the equation", eh?
"For whom He Did Foreknow, he also did Predestinate..." (Romans 8:29 AV) Amen.
You mean his destiny after having gone evil?Is it not interesting to note....?
reply 441
answer reply 442
Would this not mean that the one we call Lucifer was predetermined to fall? Lucifer’s fall is described in two key Old Testament chapters—Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14
As a result of this heinous sin against God, Lucifer was banished from living in heaven (Isaiah 14:12). He became corrupt, and his name changed from Lucifer (“morning star”) to Satan (“adversary”). His power became completely perverted (Isaiah 14:12,16,17). And his destiny, following the second coming of Christ, is to be bound in a pit during the 1000-year millennial kingdom over which Christ will rule (Revelation 20:3), and eventually will be thrown into the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41).
Wonder who here can explain the why for this one?
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Good point but not necessarily in this case. And thank you for your thoughts.
From above
@Kampione opened this thought with
@brightfame answered with
So I responded with
Would this not mean that the one we call Lucifer was predetermined to fall? Lucifer’s fall is described in two key Old Testament chapters—Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14
As a result of this heinous sin against God, Lucifer was banished from living in heaven (Isaiah 14:12). He became corrupt, and his name changed from Lucifer (“morning star”) to Satan (“adversary”). His power became completely perverted (Isaiah 14:12,16,17). And his destiny, following the second coming of Christ, is to be bound in a pit during the 1000-year millennial kingdom over which Christ will rule (Revelation 20:3), and eventually will be thrown into the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41).
If @brightfame52 is correct in his assertion that God determines the will of devils, that would be inclusive of the one that was kicked out of heaven with 1/3 of the rest of the angels and while I am a free will believer... only.... based from God's foreknowledge.... then if brightfame somehow is correct I was just wondering why God would have set things up like that that would have started before man ever walked this ball of mud called earth?
FreeInChrist
Active Member
No. Not his destiiny.
The fact that @brightfame52 said in reply to the question of
Kampioen said:
Does God predetermine the will of man? (Yes/No)
Brightfame 52 replied
brightfame52 said:
Yes, and of devils, angels
And I responded with
Would this not mean that the one we call Lucifer was predetermined to fall?
This is not about the destiny of Satan and his followers but that the very suggestion that when he, the one we call Lucifer, decided to as told in Isaiah 14:14 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'
If this was the predestiny of Satan.... then I think we would need to regroup and rethink things.
I know he had free will as did the 1/3 of the angels who followed him did.
I am fairly certain that is the reason Adam was made in the first p[lace (Another time for that)
But if it was a predestined plan of God's who certainly has all the rights to do as he wants, I am not saying he doesn't, I just think a lot of what we all have though on both sides of the predestined coin V free will need to be rethought.
I was pointing out that scripture does not state Lucifer was predetermined to fall. After the fall, however, his destiny was determined.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Thank you, and you are correct.
I was just playing off what brightfame52 believes. That every one and every thing from devils to mankind were predestined.
I dont believe that at all....
If it were true, then that would answer that question someone asked a while ago if God created evil.... because the only answer would be yes without an explanation as to why.
But thanks again for your thoughts.
Yes, I know.
atpollard
Active Member
We see "God determining EVIL" illustrated in Romans 1 in the passages following verse 18.
Romans 1:18-23 [NLT]
18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. 21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. 23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.
V.18-23 establish several important facts:
- Men are to blame ("without excuse") for their evil
- God made TRUTH plain
- Men CHOSE to reject the TRUTH for a LIE.
24 So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. ...
26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. ...
28 Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done.
Three specific times in the passages that follow it states "God abandoned them". In each case a pattern repeated:
- men chose evil over God
- God lifted his hand of restraint and allowed men greater freedom to pursue more evil desires
- men exercised this greater freedom to pursue greater depravity
Is it then so hard to believe that God cannot "remove a dead heart and replace it with a living heart" (the meaning of the "heart of stone and heart of flesh" passage) that has a new desire to rush TOWARDS God instead of AWAY? Is this not the essence of "born from above"/"born of spirit"?
Um, nothing there states God determined all of man's evil.
And nothing there states God determined that evil, as even your words indicate
- Men are to blame ("without excuse") for their evil
- God made TRUTH plain
- Men CHOSE to reject the TRUTH for a LIE.
atpollard
Active Member
What does "So God abandoned them" mean in this context?
Romans 1:21-27 [NLT]
Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.
- What did men do?
- Why did God abandon them?
- What happened after God abandoned them?
- Did "God abandoned them" have any impact on the quantity or quality of EVIL before or after God abandoned them?
I can tell you it does not mean God determined their initial evil but that after it had happened he abandoned them.
atpollard
Active Member
So you are resolute to remain ignorant and refuse to discuss.
Acknowledged as your right [and shaking off the dust.]
Mark 6:11 [NLT] "But if any place refuses to welcome you or listen to you, shake its dust from your feet as you leave to show that you have abandoned those people to their fate."
That is somewhat deceptive leaning as ihn response to your question
I replied
The word does nothing at all to support your belief in determinism.
