No one who believes we are guilty of sin ONLY by our own personal free will decision to rebel against HIM can accept this drivel...The GOD who is LOVE and JUSTICE would never put another's sin or the consequences of his sin upon an innocent person! Proverbs 17:15 Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent, the Lord detests them both.
Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".
- Thread starter MTMattie
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Of course ! but so what? Some of those angelic beings put their faith in HIM as their GOD and saviour and some repudiated HIM as their GOD until they saw the proof by the creation but by then it was too late because FAITH IS AN UNPROVEN HOPE, Heb 11:1, AND PROOF DESTROYS FAITH, Rom 8:24.
Then when some of those who put their faith in HIM rebelled against HIS call for the damnation of the Satanic reprobate, the judgement day had to be postponed so they could be redeemed and sanctified by living with the reprobate Matt 13:27-30, by being sown onto mankind, Matt 13:36-39, after all sinners were flung into Sheol, in the Earth, Rev 12:4-9...
TibiasDad
Active Member
So I am correct and your opinion that there are humans existing and make moral choices prior to being born cannot be supported by this passage.
Doug
Future eh? If so, then why are they flung into the earth instead of into hell???
Rather, Satan flung some sinful stars, angels, to earth just before his big battle with Michael et al. Why would he lose these sinners if they would fight for him? He would not ! so why would they not fight for him? Because they were the sinful elect, mistakenly and sinfully on his side to try to keep him from damnation but they would not to fight GOD for him!!!
He flung the sinful elect stars to sheol in the earth, given power over them by their choice to be sinful, then Michael flung him into the earth, into another room (tartarus) in sheol in the earth, from where all sinners are sown into mankind, as per Matt 13:36-39.
brightfame52
Active Member
Man became guilty and condemned of sin by the freewill choice of Adam
If to sow is being used as a metaphor and not to be taken at face value then it goes against the disciples request for an EXPLANATION, and as a mere extension of the metaphor explains nothing!!
How??? By our own free will decision to separate from HIM , to rebel against HIS wishes, or by someone else's evil decision??? We are NOT separated from GOD by Adam, we separated ourselves from HIM by our own free will decision to rebel against HIM!!! Elementary theology!!
Yes, all humans sinned against GOD and are fallen short by our own free will, not by Adam, before our earthly conception into this world.
Another way to say it is: only sinners are sown into this world, some the sinful people of His kingdom and some the sinful demonic reprobate, sons of the evil one: Matt 13:36-39.
TibiasDad
Active Member
Pure fantasy. But l encourage you to think about how to turn this into a novel; it could be interesting!
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
Let me pose a question: if we are born as Adam was originally created, why has there never been a single person who never sinned?
Doug
And how does Adam's choice affect us when Ezek 18:20 says otherwise?? And how can HE put Adam's sin on an innocent against Proverbs 17:15 Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent, the Lord detests them both.? ??
Let me try this again even though I previously answered it some posts ago...
No one on earth is BORN as Adam was originally created!!!!
Only sinners are sent to earth and born into mankind.
Some are the sinful people of the kingdom, ie, the sinful elect who are not condemned for their sins and some are the demonic reprobate who are condemned already, Jn 3:18.
Everyone on earth was created, not born, as Adam was originally created, innocent with a free will and everyone on earth is a sinful fallen spirit by their own free will decision to rebel against YHWH.
Only sinners are sent to earth to be sown into mankind.
Everyone on earth is a sinner who has been sent here (sown into the field of mankind, not created here), by GOD.
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TibiasDad
Active Member
Okay then…I guess there is no reason to continue to discuss this, for as I said in an earlier post, this is a fantasy of which J.R.R Tolkien might be jealous. I suppose that this could be an infinite series of generations just waiting to be sent to Earth from the great waiting room of eternity past. I’m just not in the mood for fantasy right now. But if you don’t write the story, I may!
Doug
Not infinite, ie, quite finate, and not from eternity past but only since the one past creation...you dispage my ideas which all have scriptural support by supposedly expressing them with humorous ? onerous ? exaggerations that show the truth of your soft soap...or a complete abiding ignorance of what PCE entails.
brightfame52
Active Member
Has nothing to do with Adams and Christs Federal Headship Truth in Rom 5
FreeInChrist
Active Member
So had Adam not eaten the fruit he would be alive today? As would everyone ever born?
This has always confused me.
If Adam had been told he would be separated from God, or physically gone rather then just if he ate the fruit he would die, did he even know what that could mean?
He saw Eve eat and she was still living, so did he understand?
We are not told what God actually said to him. Perhaps we are not to know and understand?
No, we do not die physically because of Adam. We die physically because physical death is an integral feature of creation. God placed the Tree of Life in the garden to supply fruit for Adam and Eve to fend off physical death so long as they were free of sin. But once they sinned, God ejected them from the garden to prevent their gaining access to the fruit of the Tree of Life and living forever in the state of sin (Gen 3:22)
Actually the only thing that the sin of Adam brought was Adam's spiritual death and his ejection from the garden with all that accompanied that.
Yes, but our separation is due to our sin not Adam's.
That is true, but that is not due to Adam's sin, but to our own sins. Our divergent nature is strictly the result of the free-will that created in us by God. That free-will is inherently a part of the image of God that He created in us by way of our spirits.
That is true.
You did not sin because of Adam, you sinned because that was what you wanted to do. You may have regretted it later, but the reason you sinned was because that was your own desire at that time.
TibiasDad
Active Member
It’s a good question, and cannot be answered beyond doubt, but it seems to me that the reason God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden so that they would not have access to the tree of Life and live physically forever.
I think that the age of the early biblical figures being many centuries old, seven of these being over 900 years old, is evidence that longevity was the intended plan.
It is impossible to know what God’s plan would have been if Adam had not sinned. To suggest any particular scenario is an exercise in futility because we simply cannot know. But I do think that Adam’s 930 years of life was far short of God’s intentions.
Doug
That's what every single son of Adam and Adam wanted to do because we all were given a free will to choose to obey or not obey. That is the cause for every sin committed by everyone including Adam.
It took nothing less than the Son of God to obey everything perfectly.
