Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".

[TomL]

All are locked up in unbelief both Jews and gentiles, that is Paul's point! Rom 11:32 is about jew and gentile, that's why He says all meaning both groups, yet its only the election of grace in each group, and all of the election of grace within both groups will obtain mercy applied to them, and so in this manner all Israel shall be saved Vs 26 not national israel, Spiritual Israel the Body of Christ.

Sorry, but you missed the second half of the verse

Romans 11:32 (NASB95) — 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
The mercy is to save those that believe
Romans 10:7–13 (NASB95) — 7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Romans 10:17 (NASB95) — 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Sorry the gentile believers are there

Romans 11:17–24 (LEB) — 17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although you were a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the root of the olive tree’s richness, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you boast against them, you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off in order that I could be grafted in.” 20 Well said! They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand firm because of faith. Do not think arrogant thoughts, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity upon those who have fallen, but upon you the kindness of God—if you continue in his kindness, for otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And those also, if they do not persist in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry, but you missed the second half of the verse

Romans 11:32 (NASB95) — 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
The mercy is to save those that believe
Romans 10:7–13 (NASB95) — 7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Romans 10:17 (NASB95) — 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

I didn't miss it when He has Mercy on them then they believe duh and it's only limited to the elect who shall Believe the sheep

 

[TomL]

I didn't miss it when He has Mercy on them then they believe duh and it's only limited to the elect who shall Believe the sheep

Nothing there about unconditional election, and further, the ability to believe is noted in the phrase

Romans 11:32 (NASB95) — 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
The mercy is to save those that believe

Romans 10:7–13 (NASB95) — 7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Romans 10:17 (NASB95) — 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

Nothing there about unconditional election, and further, the ability to believe is noted in the phrase

Romans 11:32 (NASB95) — 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
The mercy is to save those that believe

Romans 10:7–13 (NASB95) — 7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Romans 10:17 (NASB95) — 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Once God has Mercy on a person and regenerates them they believe

 

[TomL]

Once God has Mercy on a person and regenerates them they believe

You ignored scripture's testimony of the ability to believe

Nothing there about unconditional election, and further, the ability to believe is noted in the phrase

Romans 11:32 (NASB95) — 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
The mercy is to save those that believe

Romans 10:7–13 (NASB95) — 7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Romans 10:17 (NASB95) — 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (KJV 1900) — 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

 

[brightfame52]

You ignored scripture's testimony of the ability to believe

Nothing there about unconditional election, and further, the ability to believe is noted in the phrase

Romans 11:32 (NASB95) — 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
The mercy is to save those that believe

Romans 10:7–13 (NASB95) — 7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Romans 10:17 (NASB95) — 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (KJV 1900) — 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Until God has mercy on one and regenerates them, they are in a prison or locked up in unbelief, and that happens only to the vessels of mercy from Rom 9:23-24

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

In contrast, the vessels of wrath will never obtain mercy, God fits them for destruction in their unbelief, in fact He hardens them

 

[TomL]

Until God has mercy on one and regenerates them, they are in a prison or locked up in unbelief, and that happens only to the vessels of mercy from Rom 9:23-24

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

In contrast, the vessels of wrath will never obtain mercy, God fits them for destruction in their unbelief, in fact He hardens them

You ignore the obvious ability seen in the passage

You ignored scripture's testimony of the ability to believe

Nothing there about unconditional election, and further, the ability to believe is noted in the phrase

Romans 11:32 (NASB95) — 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
The mercy is to save those that believe

Romans 10:7–13 (NASB95) — 7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Romans 10:17 (NASB95) — 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (KJV 1900) — 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

 

[TedT]

God does not make us anything; Adam’s actions did,

Adam's actions can only impact us if GOD ordained it to be that way!! HE did not need to put us into Adam liable to his sin because as you pointed out, the angels were not created that way!!! HE HAD A CHOICE and your theology claims HE chose to create us liable to the suffering of sin and evil before we could choose to sin!

And since being born into Adam's sin has caused untold suffering to those who have never chosen to sin, that is, unborn babies over the eons, then I contend this horrible doctrine fails to meet the test of GOD's nature!! GOD is love and love does no harm to the innocent,
Proverbs 17:15 Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent, the Lord detests them both.

 

[TedT]

I do not believe such rhetoric and find no support for such an argument in scripture, especially the parable of the Weeds.

Then, would you please tell me what you think verses Matt 13:36-39 are trying to tell us?

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

You ignore the obvious ability seen in the passage

You ignored scripture's testimony of the ability to believe

Man unregenerate has no ability to believe in Jesus, he is imprisoned in unbelief. Like these Jn 12:39

39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[TomL]

@TomL



Man unregenerate has no ability to believe in Jesus, he is imprisoned in unbelief. Like these Jn 12:39

39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

You ignored the obvious ability seen in the passage

You ignored scripture's testimony of the ability to believe

Nothing there about unconditional election, and further, the ability to believe is noted in the phrase

Romans 11:32 (NASB95) — 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
The mercy is to save those that believe

Romans 10:7–13 (NASB95) — 7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Romans 10:17 (NASB95) — 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (KJV 1900) — 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

regarding John 12

John 12:39–43 (LEB) — 39 For this reason they were not able to believe, because again Isaiah said, 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn, and I heal them.” 41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him. 42 Yet despite that, even many of the rulers believed in him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be expelled from the synagogue. 43 For they loved the praise of men more than praise from God.

 

[brightfame52]

You ignored the obvious ability seen in the passage

You ignored scripture's testimony of the ability to believe

Nothing there about unconditional election, and further, the ability to believe is noted in the phrase

Romans 11:32 (NASB95) — 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
The mercy is to save those that believe

Romans 10:7–13 (NASB95) — 7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Romans 10:17 (NASB95) — 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (KJV 1900) — 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

regarding John 12

John 12:39–43 (LEB) — 39 For this reason they were not able to believe, because again Isaiah said, 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn, and I heal them.” 41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him. 42 Yet despite that, even many of the rulers believed in him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be expelled from the synagogue. 43 For they loved the praise of men more than praise from God.

You going in circles

 

[TibiasDad]

Adam's actions can only impact us if GOD ordained it to be that way!!

God allowed the consequences he warned Adam about to occur. No “ordaining” as you define it needed.

HE did not need to put us into Adam liable to his sin because as you pointed out, the angels were not created that way!!!

Angels do not procreate! Angels were a one and done creation. The angels that chose to rebel against God contaminated only themselves.

HE HAD A CHOICE and your theology claims HE chose to create us liable to the suffering of sin and evil before we could choose to sin!

No, I said he created mankind as peccable and gave man the sovereign right to chose what he wanted to do, being fully informed of the consequences of each alternative.

Remember, the name Adam refers not just to the singular person but also to the race as a whole. (Gen 1:26) The race as a whole was affected by the man who represented them actions. God was commanding not only the individual but the whole of his race. God did not choose this, but chose to allow man’s choice determine man’s immediate fate.

Again, we are not condemned individually by Adam’s actions, but only by our own. Being prone to sin is not condemnable, but it guarantees that we will sin and be condemned.

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

we are not condemned individually by Adam’s actions,

Yes we were condemned by Adams sin, he represented men, as a federal head, all in him received upon them condemnation because of him Rom 5:18,16

18 Therefore as by the offence of one[Adam] judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

 

[TibiasDad]

Then, would you please tell me what you think verses Matt 13:36-39 are trying to tell us?

Simple, there are two types of people in the world; the righteous and unrighteous. Those who believe are righteous and those who don’t are unrighteous. In the end the unrighteous are treated as weeds, and burned.

This says nothing about “a life existence previous to our earthly existence in the heavens wherein as spirits we chose our own fate…”

Doug

 

[TedT]

God allowed the consequences he warned Adam about to occur. No “ordaining” as you define it needed.

IF HE did NOT ordain these consequences then how did they occur?? No one else has the power to transmit sinfulness and death to their progeny...how can we pretend GOD did not create this special circumstance??

HE did not just allow Adam's progeny to have his sinfulness, HE ordained it or it would not be so because no one else has ever done that!!! None of the reprobate demonic Satanists have ever achieved this ability. Adam must have got this result by the will of GOD because it is NOT natural.

Angels do not procreate! Angels were a one and done creation. The angels that chose to rebel against God contaminated only themselves.

I agree but when they are sown into the word why do their progeny not inherit their sinfulness but only Adam's ??? Too bogus for me...

No, I said he created mankind as peccable and gave man the sovereign right to chose what he wanted to do, being fully informed of the consequences of each alternative.

WE were all created pecable and we were all faced with the choices Satan, Eve and Adam faced but we did not inherit anyone else's culpability, the unfairness of which which you choose to not address.

Ezek 18:20 Berean Standard Bible
The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. ...yet we all supposedly bear the iniquity of Adam and the consequences of his iniquity...<head shake, sigh>.

IF "bear the iniquity of" does not mean "to be liable for the sinfulness of"...what do we have? Theological gobbledygook...

 

[TedT]

Simple, there are two types of people in the world; the righteous and unrighteous. Those who believe are righteous and those who don’t are unrighteous. In the end the unrighteous are treated as weeds, and burned.

This says nothing about “a life existence previous to our earthly existence in the heavens wherein as spirits we chose our own fate…”

Doug

...conveniently ignoring the meaning of to sow, 37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

In Matt 13, all references to our being sown here are
Matthew 13:3 V-PPA-NMS
GRK: ἐξῆλθεν ὁ σπείρων τοῦ σπείρειν

Apparently all verses which use this word use it to mean to sow. So why cannot we use this meaning of this word at face value, that it refers to our being sown into this world, not created here???

 

[TibiasDad]

Yes we were condemned by Adams sin, he represented men, as a federal head, all in him received upon them condemnation because of him Rom 5:18,16

18 Therefore as by the offence of one[Adam] judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

If you are right, then all men are justified too.

We are all subject to both physical and spiritual death because of Adam. Physical death is an immediate result, but spiritual death is not held upon us until the law comes, for Paul said:

Rom 5:13To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

And again, Paul says in Rom 7:7…. “For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

We are not considered “spiritually dead” until we are cognizant of the “law” and thereby become aware of our guilt. Paul teaches that physical death “reigns” apart from the law, but it took the law, and our awareness of breaking it to make condemnation actual and binding.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

...conveniently ignoring the meaning of to sow, 37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

In Matt 13, all references to our being sown here are
Matthew 13:3 V-PPA-NMS
GRK: ἐξῆλθεν ὁ σπείρων τοῦ σπείρειν

Apparently all verses which use this word use it to mean to sow. So why cannot we use this meaning of this word at face value, that it refers to our being sown into this world, not created here???

Oh, I know, I know - waving hand high in the air...changing the meaning to creation is the eisegesic interpretation necessary to prop up the false theology of our creation!!! Applause radiates throughout the Christian world!!

It’s a parable, not all aspects are necessarily as important as others. The sowing represents association, those that believe Christ are “sown” by Christ into the world and those who don’t are “sown” into the world by their master, to do his work and try to choke the good seed that believes. In the end, the unbelieving “seed” are pulled like weeds and thrown into the fire. The good seed produces much fruit!

We cannot hermetically take a parable beyond its intended purpose and meaning.

Doug

 

[TedT]

We cannot hermetically take a parable beyond its intended purpose and meaning.

..and if the intended meaning was to clearly hint at our pre-conception existence and how we came to be infused into human society.......?