Then you either must have a holy GOD going against HIMself by creating sinners by means of HIS boy Adam according to HIS will or GOD is not holy and creates evil people for HIS own pleasure - both of which conjectures are ummmmm, hogwash to me, defendable only by the most blatant doublethink.
Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".
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brightfame52
Active Member
@FreeInChrist
I studied it a couple of decades ago, and man is by nature locked up in unbelief. Some translations say this
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all [Jew and Gentile alike]. AMP
For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all. ASV
So we are at the sovereign mercy of God to be able to believe, to obey
I studied it a couple of decades ago, and man is by nature locked up in unbelief. Some translations say this
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all [Jew and Gentile alike]. AMP
For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all. ASV
So we are at the sovereign mercy of God to be able to believe, to obey
FreeInChrist
Active Member
I agree, YOU are.
Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (LEB) — 11 “For this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too wonderful for you, and it is not too far from you. 12 It is not in the heavens so that you might say, ‘Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 13 And it is not beyond the sea, so that you might say, ‘Who will cross for us to the other side of the sea and take it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it. 15 “See, I am setting before you today life and prosperity and death and disaster; 16 what I am commanding you today is to love Yahweh your God by going in his ways and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his regulations, and then you will live, and you will become numerous, and Yahweh your God will bless you in the land where you are going. 17 However, if your heart turns aside and you do not listen and you are lured away and you bow down to other gods and you serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not extend your time on the land that you are crossing the Jordan to go there to take possession of it. 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring, 20 by loving Yahweh your God by listening to his voice and by clinging to him, for he is your life and the length of your days in order for you to live on the land that Yahweh swore to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give to them.”
This is contrary to the Calvinists doctrine of total inability
Verse 11. This commandment—is not hidden] Not too wonderful or difficult for thee to comprehend or perform, as the word נפלאת niphleth implies. Neither is it far off—the word or doctrine of salvation shall be proclaimed in your own land; for He is to be born in Bethlehem of Judah, who is to feed and save Israel; and the Prophet who is to teach them is to be raised up from among their brethren.
Verse 12. It is not in heaven] Shall not be communicated in that way in which the prophets received the living oracles; but the word shall be made flesh, and dwell among you.
Verse 13. Neither is it beyond the sea] Ye shall not be obliged to travel for it to distant nations, because salvation is of the Jews.
Verse 14. But the word is very nigh unto thee] The doctrine of salvation preached by the apostles; in thy mouth, the promises of redemption made by the prophets forming a part of every Jew’s creed; in thy heart—the power to believe with the heart unto righteousness, that the tongue may make confession unto salvation. In this way, it is evident, St. Paul understood these passages; see Rom. 10:6, &c.1
1 Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 1, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 817.
not hidden from thee] Rather, not too hard for thee, as in 17:8.
neither is it far off] Cp. Luke 17:21.1
1 Albert Barnes, Notes on the Old Testament: Exodus to Ruth (ed. F. C. Cook and J. M. Fuller; London: John Murray, 1879), 330.
Joshua 24:15–18 (LEB) — 15 But if it is bad in your eyes to serve Yahweh, choose for yourselves today whom you want to serve, whether it is the gods that your ancestors served beyond the river, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, we will serve Yahweh.” 16 And the people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we would forsake Yahweh to serve other gods, 17 for Yahweh our God brought us and our ancestors from the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery, and did these great signs before our eyes. He protected us along the entire way that we went, and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 And Yahweh drove out all the people before us, the Amorites who live in the land. We will serve Yahweh, for he is our God.”
Verse 26. Behold, I set before you—a blessing and a curse] If God had not put it in the power of this people either to obey or disobey; if they had not had a free will, over which they had complete authority, to use it either in the way of willing or nilling; could God, with any propriety, have given such precepts as these, sanctioned with such promises and threatenings? If they were not free agents, they could not be punished for disobedience, nor could they, in any sense of the word, have been rewardable for obedience. A stone is not rewardable because, in obedience to the laws of gravitation, it always tends to the centre; nor is it punishable because, in being removed from that centre, in its tending or falling towards it again it takes away the life of a man.
That God has given man a free, self-determining will, which cannot be forced by any power but that which is omnipotent, and which God himself never will force, is declared in the most formal manner through the whole of the sacred writings. No argument can affect this, while the Bible is considered as a Divine revelation; no sophistry can explain away its evidence, as long as the accountableness of man for his conduct is admitted, and as long as the eternal bounds of moral good and evil remain, and the essential distinctions between vice and virtue exist. If ye will obey, (for God is ever ready to assist,) ye shall live; if ye will disobey and refuse that help, ye shall die. So hath Jehovah spoken, and man cannot reverse it.1
1 Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 1, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 769.
Joshua 24:15
“‘If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.’”
Our choices matter to God, but what would be the value of our choices if God had already, secretly decreed all of our choices for us? In other words, if God decreed whatsoever comes to pass, including all of the thoughts and intentions of the heart, then while we certainly make choices, we wouldn’t really have a choice, besides what is chosen for us. Moreover, why would God respond with approval or displeasure, if our choices were really just and extension of His decreed choices? If Calvinists were to deny that God makes our choices for us, but merely that God renders our choices certain, then that would seem like a distinction without a difference.
Calvinism Answered Verse by Verse and Subject by Subject
brightfame52
Active Member
You just post anything.
TibiasDad
Active Member
I’m not sure what I’m supposed to disagree with here; my point is that it is possible for believers to cease believing and thereby be “cut off” just as Israel was.
But that said, kindness is attributed to the Lord, not us.
Doug
@TibiasDad
And you never will once you enter into a dialogue with him.
Doug you are so wrong ~ Paul was addressing the Gentiles, verses the Jews "as a nation", just as the Jews were cut off as a nation of God special people, and so would the Gentiles as a nation shall be cut off from God's goodness, which we are at the very end of God visiting the Gentile nations. But, within each, God as an election of grace that that he has reserved that will not bow the knee to false religion and to this world system!
TibiasDad
Active Member
Anything that is deemed necessary in a process has a causative effect toward the end result. If it is a causative element, the term “because” is appropriate to use.
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
Gentiles are not a “nation”, they are a type of human genetically speaking. Specifically, they are not Jewish.
Paul was addressing genetically non-Jewish believers. And he has been recounting that the gospel came to the Gentiles because those who were the chosen people of God, those whom God elected, chose, to be his people did not believe God’s promises.
The Jewish people were “cut off” because of unbelief and the Gentiles we’re “grafted in” as a wild branch to a natural vine, thus becoming a part of the vine by faith, not keeping the Jewish law.
But Paul warns the Gentiles that they shouldn’t be arrogant about this chain of events; that if the Jews were cut off, God could and would cut Gentiles off as well if they fell into disbelief as the Jews did.
Paul is not talking about some dispensational period of time, but the personal, daily belief of individuals who have or haven’t believed in a corporate sense.
There will always be some who believe and be faithful; and there will always be those who aren’t. Paul is exhorting us to not grow lazy and return to unbelief.
Doug
LOL, the fact that you can't see the sheer foolishness of this post, is the reason why no one can reason with you.
Yes Red, you have been crystal clear about how you feel about God's Righteousness, with all it's threats and precepts, and how God would actually dare to direct HIS Children concerning what to eat, what to drink, and what to be covered with and how to submit to Him so as to endure in this evil world.
Again, the fact that you can't see the glaring hypocrisy in your posted religious philosophy is astounding.
As a father, you demand the right to teach your children what is food and what is not food and you expect them to honor your instruction as one who knows better than them, what is good for them.
And yet you deny the God and Father of all, the same exact Right to instruct His Children in the same exact manner, and then expect His Children to Honor and respect Him as One who knows better than they? This is the perfect example of why Paul said men fell, "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."
There is so many verses which expose the foolishness of your posts. I will only post Two though, one by the Word's of the Jesus "of the bible" Himself.
Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
And the other by Paul's Words.
Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.
This explains why you would turn me away from the God of the Bible, to Calvinism.
Your popular worldly religious philosophy is seductive, that Jesus endured so much, that HE Sacrificed His Entire Life to God, so that you can be free to eat all the swine's flesh and slugs you want, and rid yourself of God's Laws that you preach to your grandchildren are "Beggarly Elements" and a "Yoke of Bondage" that God placed on the Necks of men that trusted Him.
It's a blasphemous religion, but one that has been there from the beginning, as the very first mainstream preacher of this world promoted,
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know "that in the day ye eat thereof", (Reject God's Instruction in Righteousness) "then" your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Your religious philosophy Red, that implies that as long as a man strives to live in Faithful Obedience to God's Laws, he will remain blind and ignorant, is the oldest deception of record.
And your Posts are still promoting the same lies that were spoken by the serpent in the garden.
This is true.
Men will hear the corrupt religious philosophy of "TULIP" from false prophets.
They will hear the blasphemy that God created a garden with a perfect deceiver in it, then sent Eve into the garden with no warning, or as you preach, "No assistance from God at all", and then when she was deceived, HE not only punished her and her children but punished every child ever born, by giving them a "Sin Nature".
Men will hear the popular but insidious lie that God convinced men to trust Him, but when they did trust Him, HE placed impossible to obey Laws on their backs, and lied to them by telling them they could obey Him, then HE slaughtered them by the thousands when they didn't obey Him.
You will here all these lies from the promoters of this world's religions, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, but are false prophets.
What you won't here from them is the Truth, that God judges men by their own works, their own rejection of God's Righteousness.
The Jesus of the Bible showed kindness and mercy by calling a liar, a liar. By calling a hypocrite, a hypocrite. The point of my post, is to show Paul's Teaching that the men who fell in the Law and Prophets, fell so we can learn not to lust after rejecting God's Laws, Judgments and Commandments. That just because a man calls Jesus Lord, Lord, he is still judged by his own choices. If he continues in God's Goodness, like Caleb, David, Zacharias, Paul, James, etc., there is /mercy and Kindness awaiting them. But if they reject God'[s commandments, despise his Judgments, and pollutes His Sabbaths, then there is wrath awaiting them.
That is the message of Romans 11.
I'm hoping you don't disagree with him.
brightfame52
Active Member
You all over the place like a desperate person
TibiasDad
Active Member
That is Calvinism…God predetermining all things expressly for his glory.
Non sequitur argument.
God is Holy, and created a race of people who had the potential for becoming evil or remaining pure, and this would occur solely by the choice and will of the man. Man chose evil.
Good saves for his own pleasure and for the sake of mankind, who doesn’t deserve it.
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
In principle, no, but God has shown kindness to all “in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” His wrath is for those who reject his undeserved kindness.
Doug
@TibiasDad
So, what you are attempting to say is a hundred pennies is not a dollar, but one hundred pennies, which btw is one dollar. All who were not Jew by nature were considered Gentiles, though they came from different nations. Silly argument, on you part.
As a nation they were cut off, not every single one which Paul proved by himself being a NT believer. God is forever finished with them as a nation! Soon he will be finished with the Gentiles nations of this world as well.
Well, you need to read the whole chapter of Romans eleven, which will prove your error. Maybe tomorrow, we shall see.
And we ask you why, how so? Were they just better folks then those that perish in their sins? I provided the proof above from Romans 11:1-6 as to why some do. and others do not. Where is your proof for your position.
It is not Calvinism because PCE rebukes the contention that GOD predestined the fall nor sin for HIS glory most strongly...
PCE contends that everyone got a free will choice before the fall. WE chose our FATES by faith, an unproven hope, either to be HIS heavenly Bride or to be HIS eternal enemies, before the creation of the physical universe which we all saw, Job 38:7 with Rom I:20...
AFTER some of those who put their faith in HIM as their saviour from all sin did indeed fall into sinfulness, (uncondemned, Jn 3:18), HE predestined their LIVES in mankind, in Adam, to bring them to redemption, salvation and holiness.
Still think this sounds like Calvinism...?
Then do you repudiate the sinfulness of infants?
Maybe you repudiate that death is the wages for sin?
Babies in the womb die.
Death proves sinfulness or GOD visits the consequences of sin upon the innocent...and yet HE is love and love does not harm, sigh.
Believing infants in the womb are sinful is NOT Calvinism because PCE contends they are sinners by their own free will rebellion to GOD before their conception into mankind, Matt 13:36-39.
TibiasDad
Active Member
No, I am saying that the concept of nations is a political construct. The gospel is about people, regardless of their politics or country of origin.
Yes, the Jews were called, in a corporate sense, to be a nation of people, set apart as distinct patriarchy from all other humans beings. But the gospel is about individuals, not nations.
By the way, the Merriam-Webster dictionary definition of Gentile is “a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith”. From a Jewish perspective, all Christian’s are Gentiles.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
You dont know where you wanna go. Believing is by the Spirit and its an evidence of salvation. Before salvation man is imprisoned in unbelief, in the adamic dead nature.
