Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".

[MTMattie]

Calvinists believe this verse is the proof that it is by God that one is chosen for salvation and that God gives you the necessary gift of faith that makes that truly happen.

I know, I know... this is roughly stated in simplicity, but still there are those who read things and need such simplicity.

But here is another question?

Can we repent or does God cause us to repent?​

He allegedly gives us the faith that is required. Correct? So is it our faith that causes us to repent or is it God?
In my studies of predestination V foreknowledge I ran into this very question. A very thought provoking question.
Excerps are from https://evidenceunseen.com/new-test.../can-we-repent-or-does-god-cause-us-to-repent

Paul , in 2 Tim 2:25 nasb95 writes with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 2:25.

Some interpreters viciously argue that we cannot repent, unless God grants this to us.
Some suggestion of such we find in Acts 5:31 NASB95 “He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins... although to a group certainly does not qualify as to an individual.

So, does this eliminate the importance of freewill in regard to repentance?

In other words, are we responsible for repentance or is God?
And if it be God, can we be held accountable if we dont fully repent?

From the link:
God gives us the opportunity to repent, but we still decide to repent. There are a number of reasons why this is the case:

First, Jesus, Peter, and Paul all call on fallen people to repent. Jesus called for repentance (Mk. 1:15). So did Peter (Acts 3:19). So did Paul (Acts 17:30). These calls for repentance would be an illusion if repentance is actually a gift. In other words, why would God call on us to repent, if this is actually impossible to do? Calvinistic interpreters often counter that God often asks humans to do the impossible, knowing that we cannot do it (Mt. 5:48; Mk. 12:30). However, these calls for perfection are analogous. God’s calls for perfection are the standard that God righteously requires (c.f. Rom. 2:7). Therefore, by appealing to these verses, we are really comparing apples with oranges.

Second, God granted repentance to a group, rather than an individual. We need to be careful not to read the Bible as referring to me, when it is actually referring to we. This corporate language doesn’t fit with the idea that God forced us as individuals to repent and receive him. Instead, Paul is effectually saying that God is breaking into new groups of people. For instance, in Acts 11:18, we read, “God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.” Here, the focus is specifically on the Gentiles. However, when God grants repentance to the Gentiles, it is clear that he is not saving every Gentile! Instead, he is simply saying that God is reaching new groups of people. For this reason, we shouldn’t read something into these passages that isn’t there.

Third, being granted repentance refers to an opportunity –not an action. In one sense, being granted repentance is God’s offer (i.e. opportunity). While in another sense, being granted repentance is our decision (i.e. action). Similarly, Paul viewed suffering as being “granted for Christ’s sake” (Phil. 1:29). Of course, when God grants us to suffer, he is not forcing us to suffer. Instead, he simply gives us the opportunity to suffer for the cause of Christ.

In a similar way, consider the word “surrender.” This can be used in two complimentary ways: both as an opportunity and an action. Likewise, when God grants us repentance, he is giving us the opportunity to repent. For instance:

• OPPORTUNITY: “The enemy gave us an opportunity to surrender.”
• ACTION: “We surrendered to the enemy.”

Fourth, it would be inconsistent to say that God grants some people repentance, when in 2 Peter he grants this to everyone. How could God grant some people repentance, when it’s clear that he doesn’t want “any” to perish but for “all” to come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9)?

Opinions?

 

[Jim]

Calvinists believe this verse is the proof that it is by God that one is chosen for salvation and that God gives you the necessary gift of faith that makes that truly happen.

I know, I know... this is roughly stated in simplicity, but still there are those who read things and need such simplicity.

But here is another question?

Can we repent or does God cause us to repent?​

He allegedly gives us the faith that is required. Correct? So is it our faith that causes us to repent or is it God?
In my studies of predestination V foreknowledge I ran into this very question. A very thought provoking question.
Excerps are from https://evidenceunseen.com/new-test.../can-we-repent-or-does-god-cause-us-to-repent

Paul , in 2 Tim 2:25 nasb95 writes with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 2:25.

Some interpreters viciously argue that we cannot repent, unless God grants this to us.
Some suggestion of such we find in Acts 5:31 NASB95 “He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins... although to a group certainly does not qualify as to an individual.

So, does this eliminate the importance of freewill in regard to repentance?

In other words, are we responsible for repentance or is God?
And if it be God, can we be held accountable if we dont fully repent?

Opinions?

I think it is fair to say that many, perhaps most, that hold to the Calvinist teachings believe in the deterministic character of God. They have redefined the meaning of the sovereignty of God such that only a deterministic view of God and thus all creation fits.

I would point out that the message of John the Baptist as well as that of the disciples of Jesus was a message of baptism OF repentance FOR (unto) the forgiveness of sins. That was precisely the message of Peter on the day of Pentecost with the added benefit of receiving the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus Christ granting His people repentance when He saves them causes them to repent Acts 5:31; Act 11:18, He causes them He saves to be born again and repentance accompanies that

 

[TomL]

Jesus Christ granting His people repentance when He saves them causes them to repent Acts 5:31; Act 11:18, He causes them He saves to be born again and repentance accompanies that

Repentance is the responsibility of man

Acts 3:19 (LEB) — 19 Therefore repent and turn back, so that your sins may be blotted out,

Luke 13:3 (LEB) — 3 No, I tell you, but unless you repent you will all perish as well!

Mark 1:15 (LEB) — 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe in the gospel!”

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 3:9 (LEB) — 9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

 

[Presby02]

Calvinists believe this verse is the proof that it is by God that one is chosen for salvation and that God gives you the necessary gift of faith that makes that truly happen.

I know, I know... this is roughly stated in simplicity, but still there are those who read things and need such simplicity.

But here is another question?

Can we repent or does God cause us to repent?​

He allegedly gives us the faith that is required. Correct? So is it our faith that causes us to repent or is it God?
In my studies of predestination V foreknowledge I ran into this very question. A very thought provoking question.
Excerps are from https://evidenceunseen.com/new-test.../can-we-repent-or-does-god-cause-us-to-repent

Paul , in 2 Tim 2:25 nasb95 writes with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 2:25.

Some interpreters viciously argue that we cannot repent, unless God grants this to us.
Some suggestion of such we find in Acts 5:31 NASB95 “He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins... although to a group certainly does not qualify as to an individual.

So, does this eliminate the importance of freewill in regard to repentance?

In other words, are we responsible for repentance or is God?
And if it be God, can we be held accountable if we dont fully repent?

Opinions?

Repentance is granted or given y God as is belief.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Repentance is the responsibility of man

Acts 3:19 (LEB) — 19 Therefore repent and turn back, so that your sins may be blotted out,

Luke 13:3 (LEB) — 3 No, I tell you, but unless you repent you will all perish as well!

Mark 1:15 (LEB) — 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe in the gospel!”

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 3:9 (LEB) — 9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

Good scriptures @TomL ... but why do you suppose that no mention of repentance came from Jesus when he was talking to Nicodemus?

 

[FreeInChrist]

Repentance is granted or given y God as is belief.

When Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about "How to be born again" he neve touched on repentance as being important.
In fact. What we are told as how that went down seems to lack what it would take to make Nicodemus truly want to be born again.

Is it safe to assume that old Nicodemus here was not included in those who were pre-chosen?

 

[Presby02]

When Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about "How to be born again" he neve touched on repentance as being important.
In fact. What we are told as how that went down seems to lack what it would take to make Nicodemus truly want to be born again.

Is it safe to assume that old Nicodemus here was not included in those who were pre-chosen?

Why would you assime that?

 

[Rockerduck]

I'll make Ephesians 2:8 simple. For by (the) Grace (of God) you have been saved by Faith (in Jesus Christ), and that not of yourselves. (you didn't do anything), (Jesus Christ) is the gift of God. (and) Not of works lest anyone should boast (about saving yourself)

 

[FreeInChrist]

When Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about "How to be born again" he neve touched on repentance as being important.
In fact. What we are told as how that went down seems to lack what it would take to make Nicodemus truly want to be born again.

Is it safe to assume that old Nicodemus here was not included in those who were pre-chosen?

Why would you assime that?

I asked you, the pre-destined guy between the two of us a question...

Nick wanted to be told how to be born again. And he was told " 6That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit. And Jesus completes explaining to him about 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8;The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”
He furthers things with. 10Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things? 11;Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you people do not accept our testimony.

During this exchange with Nick Jesus did not touch on repentance as being necessary. He also did not mention that it was necessary for him to be immersed for either the forgiveness of sins or to be saved.

So I assume that Nick was not one of the chosen ones????

 

[FreeInChrist]

I'll make Ephesians 2:8 simple. For by (the) Grace (of God) you have been saved by Faith (in Jesus Christ), and that not of yourselves. (you didn't do anything), (Jesus Christ) is the gift of God. (and) Not of works lest anyone should boast (about saving yourself)

So believing in Him...having Faith in Him... repenting... or immersion baptism are not needed?

GOOD TO KNOW.

 

[TomL]

Good scriptures @TomL ... but why do you suppose that no mention of repentance came from Jesus when he was talking to Nicodemus?

I do not know, but this Jesus did say to him

John 3:14–18 (KJV 1900) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[TomL]

Repentance is granted or given y God as is belief.

Repentance as well as belief still remain a responsibility of man.

Jeremiah 18:7–10 (LEB) — 7 One moment I speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom, to uproot, and to tear down, and to destroy it. 8 But if that nation turns back from its evil that I have threatened against it, then I will relent concerning the disaster that I planned to do to it. 9 And the next moment I speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom, to build, and to plant it. 10 But if it does evil in my sight, to not listen to my voice, then I will relent concerning the good that I said I would do to it.

Ezekiel 18:21–24 (LEB) — 21 But if the wicked returns from all of his sins that he has done and he keeps all of my statutes and he does justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die! 22 All of his transgressions that he committed will not be remembered against him. Through his righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23 Have I delight by any means in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord Yahweh, and not at his turning from his way, so that he lives? 24 And when the righteous turns from his righteousness, so that he does injustice, and does all of the detestable things that the wicked do, then will he live because of all of his righteousness that he did? Those things will not be remembered because of his infidelity that he displayed, and because of his sin that he committed. Through them he shall die.

Ezekiel 18:30–32 (LEB) — 30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “Repent and turn around from all of your transgression, and it will not be as a stumbling block of iniquity to you. 31 Throw away from yourselves all of your transgressions that you committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and new spirit, and so why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of the dying,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “And so repent and live!”

Ezekiel 33:13–15 (LEB) — 13 When I say to the righteous, ‘Certainly he will live,’ and he trusted in his righteousness, and he turns and he does injustice, all of his righteousness will not be remembered, and because of his injustice that he did, because of it he will die. 14 And when I say to the wicked, ‘Certainly you will die,’ but he returns from his sin and he does justice and righteousness— 15 for example, the wicked returns a pledge for a loan, he restores stolen property, he goes in the statutes of life so as not to do injustice—certainly he will live; he will not die.

Deuteronomy 30:11–19 (LEB) — 11 “For this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too wonderful for you, and it is not too far from you. 12 It is not in the heavens so that you might say, ‘Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 13 And it is not beyond the sea, so that you might say, ‘Who will cross for us to the other side of the sea and take it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it. 15 “See, I am setting before you today life and prosperity and death and disaster; 16 what I am commanding you today is to love Yahweh your God by going in his ways and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his regulations, and then you will live, and you will become numerous, and Yahweh your God will bless you in the land where you are going. 17 However, if your heart turns aside and you do not listen and you are lured away and you bow down to other gods and you serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not extend your time on the land that you are crossing the Jordan to go there to take possession of it. 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring,

Luke 13:24 (LEB) — 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able to,

Deuteronomy 4:29–32 (LEB) — 29 But from there you shall seek Yahweh your God and will find him, if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul. 30 In your distress when all these things have found you in the latter days, then you will return to Yahweh your God, and you will listen to his voice. 31 For Yahweh your God is a compassionate God; he will not abandon you, and he will not destroy you, and he will not forget the covenant of your ancestors that he swore to them. 32 “Yes, ask, please, about former days that preceded you from the day that God created humankind on the earth; ask even from one end of the heaven up to the other end of heaven whether anything ever happened like this great thing or whether anything like it was ever heard.

Total depravity is clearly called into question in these verses

 

[Presby02]

Repentance as well as belief still remain a responsibility of man.

Jeremiah 18:7–10 (LEB) — 7 One moment I speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom, to uproot, and to tear down, and to destroy it. 8 But if that nation turns back from its evil that I have threatened against it, then I will relent concerning the disaster that I planned to do to it. 9 And the next moment I speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom, to build, and to plant it. 10 But if it does evil in my sight, to not listen to my voice, then I will relent concerning the good that I said I would do to it.

Ezekiel 18:21–24 (LEB) — 21 But if the wicked returns from all of his sins that he has done and he keeps all of my statutes and he does justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die! 22 All of his transgressions that he committed will not be remembered against him. Through his righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23 Have I delight by any means in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord Yahweh, and not at his turning from his way, so that he lives? 24 And when the righteous turns from his righteousness, so that he does injustice, and does all of the detestable things that the wicked do, then will he live because of all of his righteousness that he did? Those things will not be remembered because of his infidelity that he displayed, and because of his sin that he committed. Through them he shall die.

Ezekiel 18:30–32 (LEB) — 30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “Repent and turn around from all of your transgression, and it will not be as a stumbling block of iniquity to you. 31 Throw away from yourselves all of your transgressions that you committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and new spirit, and so why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of the dying,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “And so repent and live!”

Ezekiel 33:13–15 (LEB) — 13 When I say to the righteous, ‘Certainly he will live,’ and he trusted in his righteousness, and he turns and he does injustice, all of his righteousness will not be remembered, and because of his injustice that he did, because of it he will die. 14 And when I say to the wicked, ‘Certainly you will die,’ but he returns from his sin and he does justice and righteousness— 15 for example, the wicked returns a pledge for a loan, he restores stolen property, he goes in the statutes of life so as not to do injustice—certainly he will live; he will not die.

Deuteronomy 30:11–19 (LEB) — 11 “For this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too wonderful for you, and it is not too far from you. 12 It is not in the heavens so that you might say, ‘Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 13 And it is not beyond the sea, so that you might say, ‘Who will cross for us to the other side of the sea and take it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it. 15 “See, I am setting before you today life and prosperity and death and disaster; 16 what I am commanding you today is to love Yahweh your God by going in his ways and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his regulations, and then you will live, and you will become numerous, and Yahweh your God will bless you in the land where you are going. 17 However, if your heart turns aside and you do not listen and you are lured away and you bow down to other gods and you serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not extend your time on the land that you are crossing the Jordan to go there to take possession of it. 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring,

Luke 13:24 (LEB) — 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able to,

Deuteronomy 4:29–32 (LEB) — 29 But from there you shall seek Yahweh your God and will find him, if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul. 30 In your distress when all these things have found you in the latter days, then you will return to Yahweh your God, and you will listen to his voice. 31 For Yahweh your God is a compassionate God; he will not abandon you, and he will not destroy you, and he will not forget the covenant of your ancestors that he swore to them. 32 “Yes, ask, please, about former days that preceded you from the day that God created humankind on the earth; ask even from one end of the heaven up to the other end of heaven whether anything ever happened like this great thing or whether anything like it was ever heard.

Total depravity is clearly called into question in these verses

No one has ever said otherwise.

 

[Presby02]

I asked you, the pre-destined guy between the two of us a question...

Nick wanted to be told how to be born again. And he was told " 6That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit. And Jesus completes explaining to him about 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8;The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”
He furthers things with. 10Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things? 11;Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you people do not accept our testimony.

During this exchange with Nick Jesus did not touch on repentance as being necessary. He also did not mention that it was necessary for him to be immersed for either the forgiveness of sins or to be saved.

So I assume that Nick was not one of the chosen ones????

Only God knows the heart correct? Why would you ask me auch a question.

 

[atpollard]

Can we repent or does God cause us to repent?

I would say "empower" rather than "cause" [Although if one wants to get metaphysical and philosophical, God is the ultimate (first) cause of all things.]

Philippians 2:13 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

 

[civic]

I would say "empower" rather than "cause" [Although if one wants to get metaphysical and philosophical, God is the ultimate (first) cause of all things.]

Philippians 2:13 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Not sin

 

[TomL]

No one has ever said otherwise.

Ok, good.

Jeremiah 18:7–10 (LEB) — 7 One moment I speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom, to uproot, and to tear down, and to destroy it. 8 But if that nation turns back from its evil that I have threatened against it, then I will relent concerning the disaster that I planned to do to it. 9 And the next moment I speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom, to build, and to plant it. 10 But if it does evil in my sight, to not listen to my voice, then I will relent concerning the good that I said I would do to it.

Ezekiel 18:21–24 (LEB) — 21 But if the wicked returns from all of his sins that he has done and he keeps all of my statutes and he does justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die! 22 All of his transgressions that he committed will not be remembered against him. Through his righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23 Have I delight by any means in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord Yahweh, and not at his turning from his way, so that he lives? 24 And when the righteous turns from his righteousness, so that he does injustice, and does all of the detestable things that the wicked do, then will he live because of all of his righteousness that he did? Those things will not be remembered because of his infidelity that he displayed, and because of his sin that he committed. Through them he shall die.

Ezekiel 18:30–32 (LEB) — 30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “Repent and turn around from all of your transgression, and it will not be as a stumbling block of iniquity to you. 31 Throw away from yourselves all of your transgressions that you committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and new spirit, and so why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of the dying,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “And so repent and live!”

Ezekiel 33:13–15 (LEB) — 13 When I say to the righteous, ‘Certainly he will live,’ and he trusted in his righteousness, and he turns and he does injustice, all of his righteousness will not be remembered, and because of his injustice that he did, because of it he will die. 14 And when I say to the wicked, ‘Certainly you will die,’ but he returns from his sin and he does justice and righteousness— 15 for example, the wicked returns a pledge for a loan, he restores stolen property, he goes in the statutes of life so as not to do injustice—certainly he will live; he will not die.

Deuteronomy 30:11–19 (LEB) — 11 “For this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too wonderful for you, and it is not too far from you. 12 It is not in the heavens so that you might say, ‘Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 13 And it is not beyond the sea, so that you might say, ‘Who will cross for us to the other side of the sea and take it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it. 15 “See, I am setting before you today life and prosperity and death and disaster; 16 what I am commanding you today is to love Yahweh your God by going in his ways and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his regulations, and then you will live, and you will become numerous, and Yahweh your God will bless you in the land where you are going. 17 However, if your heart turns aside and you do not listen and you are lured away and you bow down to other gods and you serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not extend your time on the land that you are crossing the Jordan to go there to take possession of it. 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring,

Luke 13:24 (LEB) — 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able to,

Deuteronomy 4:29–32 (LEB) — 29 But from there you shall seek Yahweh your God and will find him, if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul. 30 In your distress when all these things have found you in the latter days, then you will return to Yahweh your God, and you will listen to his voice. 31 For Yahweh your God is a compassionate God; he will not abandon you, and he will not destroy you, and he will not forget the covenant of your ancestors that he swore to them. 32 “Yes, ask, please, about former days that preceded you from the day that God created humankind on the earth; ask even from one end of the heaven up to the other end of heaven whether anything ever happened like this great thing or whether anything like it was ever heard.

Total depravity is clearly called into question in these verses

 

[atpollard]

Not sin

So what power/being external to God and creation compelled (first cause) sin to exist? [If we are going to go down that "metaphysical/philosophical" bunny trail of "first cause".]

"That's DUALITY, Patrick!"

 

[TomL]

So what power/being external to God and creation compelled (first cause) sin to exist? [If we are going to go down that "metaphysical/philosophical" bunny trail of "first cause".]

"That's DUALITY, Patrick!"

God is not the cause of sin.

James 1:13–14 (LEB) — 13 No one who is being tempted should say, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desires.

1 John 1:5 (LEB) — 5 And this is the message which we have heard from him and announce to you, that God is light and there is no darkness in him at all.

Deuteronomy 32:4 (LEB) — 4 The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are just; he is a faithful God, and without injustice; righteous and upright is he.

Psalm 145:17 (LEB) — 17 Yahweh is righteous in all his ways, and loyal in all his works.

Job 34:10 (LEB) — 10 “Therefore, listen to me, people who have sense: far be it from God that he should commit wickedness and that Shaddai should do wrong.