Selah
Active Member
I’m not following. You say that “Jesus comes back before Satan can finish.” Can you clear that up a little? …can finish what exactly?
Christian Destinies
- Thread starter mikesw
- Start date
Selah
Active Member
…because Revelation 11:3 outlines the last three and a half days before Jesus Christ's return, with the church still present, by the way. The two witnesses, clothed in sackcloth, will prophesy for God for the entire thousand two hundred and threescore days, warning mankind of their sins.
s e l a h
s e l a h
I have a fundamental problem with that claim that Satan is controlling any outcomes. He might enter someone and influence a key person that, for example, leads many into battle. But we find in the prophets that the wars and turmoil were designated by God for judgment of the Israel people and of the surrounding nations. Even the Christians were to go through persecution as part of a refiner's fire for purification. So, whatever powers Satan is given, they are within the prophetic limits that God has given -- not something that is out of control and random. The scary part is how people think in a dualistic sense of two equal powers (God and then Satan) fighting it out to the end.
Edited in: Maybe Satan thinks he can act as a full opponent of God with equal abilities. But Christians should not agree with Satan's view of himself.
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Selah
Active Member
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Revelation 19:11-16 (NKJV) 11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes [were] like a flame of fire, and on His head [were] many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He [was] clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on [His] robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Amen, Mike. God is in control of all these things that’ll be happening during these latter days when Satan comes pretending to be God. Well, Christians who have studied the book of Revelation will not be deceived by Satan’s antics because we have already been foretold by Jesus what’s going to happen. Satan’s going down, down, down, all the way down into the pit. This is the time when the saints (Christians) shine. …and our gospel armor will be shining, too. s e l a h
Revelation 19:11-16 (NKJV) 11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes [were] like a flame of fire, and on His head [were] many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He [was] clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on [His] robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
civic
Active Member
the last days began with Jesus 1st coming and will reach its consummation at His 2nd Coming which is still future.
I do not find much of anything of different ends, only a single end.
I do not find anything of last times except Jud 1:18. The last days would be the same events. We have terms like latter end and last days that appear to be the same.
Then on #4 the end is a specific moment not a continuing process. The latter days (Acts 2:17 reflecting on Joel 2:28-32) does reflect a period of time leading to the end of the Mosaic era.
JoshebB
Active Member
Answer them and I'll make the connections if they're still not recognized.
JoshebB
Active Member
What does 1 Corinthians 10:11 explicitly state?
1 Corinthians 10:11
Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
That verse explicitly states the ends of the ages had come upon those in Corinth in the first century. It states the ends of the ages, not the beginning of the ages, and not the beginning of the ends. It states "ages," plural, implying there are no more ages to follow. Jesus spoke of "this age and the age to come, and there in his letter to the Corinthians Paul declares the ends of the ages have come. Was Jesus mistaken, or was it Paul who was in error? What if both men are correct and ALL of our doctrines should be made to reconcile with what both men explicitly stated?
Alternatively....
Show me the verse that explicitly states the last days will reach its culmination at Jesus' second coming some point during or after the 21st century. Just post the verse. I don't need or want your personal opinion on the matter. Just post the verse.
JoshebB
Active Member
I tend to agree. The "last days," and "last times," speak to the same event or set of events. The problem is the Bible does not specify the last days of what? and everybody and his mother has an idea what that is AND they all feel bold enough to add to God's word with such confidence that they think everyone else should agree with them and believe as they do. Scores of books are written on the subject and most of them do not identify the last days of what. Those that do assert their respective point of view as if they know when the truth is the assertion is nothing more than speculation.
And most of them do so either neglecting or willfully ignoring one of the most basic rules of Biblical interpretation: The explicit defines the implicit.
That is not an answer to the question asked.
When scripture states an end has occurred, do you think it is appropriate to read that text to mean the end is still ending?
When in the Bible has the end of anything lasted thousands of years? What precedent in scripture is there for such an interpretation? When does the Bible use the word "end" and not mean end? When God ever use the word "end" and not mean a final part of something, especially a period of time, something coming to its final finish?
Another basic rule of Biblical exegesis: First, read scripture exactly as written with the normal meaning of the words in their ordinary usage unless there is something in the immediately surrounding text providing a reason to do otherwise. Should we follow that precept, or not?
I'm not singling you out, @mikesw. We should all be asking ourselves these same questions and standing on the exact same exegetical precepts.
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Now I heard but I did not understand. So I said, ‘My Lord, what will be the outcome of these things?’ Then he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.” (TLV) Daniel 12:8-9
It is good for us to realize that there are some things that happen in this life that we will not understand until we are with the Lord in eternity. I have found great comfort in these verses when the unexplainable happens to me or to people around me. God’s counsel to Daniel is to release the stress of needing to understand everything, move forward in life, and rest in the knowledge that God is in control.
Shalom Aleichem
civic
Active Member
Exact word fallacy . Show me the word Trinity in the Bible
Daniel's content provides the skeleton for Matthew 24/Luke 21/Mark 13. Daniel primarily provides the concerns about the continuing sins of the people of Israel with additional details surrounding the four empires that ends with the Roman empire. There is somewhat an extension or vagueness about the saints who inherit the kingdom (especially Dan 7:13-27, 12:1-12).
Basically the end in view within Daniel concerns the end of the Israel nation. They were given a timeline of seventy weeks to recognize the time of their visitation. The end revolves around the passages about Israel, even if benefits are extended to broader peoples.
These are the passages that I have assembled based on wording. Note these are mostly limited to books I follow, so additional texts might be found. So I do not broadly cover books like Jeremiah and Ezekiel. The "general end" category is a catch all for use of "end" within less specifically worded phrases.
Latter Days
Dan 8:19, Deut 32:29, Dan 10:14
Latter end or Last days
Deut 32:29, Acts 2:17
Latter end of indignation
Dan 8:19, Dan 11:36
Latter end when transgressions are full
Dan 8:23, Dan 9:5, Deut 32:29
End to sacrifice and offering
Dan 9:27, Dan 8:11, Dan 8:13, Joel 1:9
End of Israel – Last Day – promises to Israel
Rom 11:26, Isa 10:22, Dan 11:40, Deut 32:29, Matt 24:14, Dan 12:7
General end
Matt 24:14, Dan 12:9, Deut 32:29, Dan 11:40, 1 Cor 15:24, 1 Peter 4:7, Dan 8:17, Matt 28:20, Isa 10:23
The more specific phrases like latter end and latter days are shaped by Deut 32:29 and Daniel. Joel (with Acts 2:17) provides more detail to show it was the latter days, as they led to the end. These are all in context of prophecy about Israel, with some possible address of the four empires. I can add the content of these verses if desired. But I am not particularly listing them to all be read at once
I'm getting a bit disoriented with the recent posts -- of what I just answered and then with this one. so 1 Corinthians 10:11 is sort of a confirmation of the point I made about the end happening, which is expressed as the end of the age in Matt 3:3. It seems interesting that their question could fit also with the ends of the ages, but I have not had 1 Corinthians 10:11 in mind until this moment. The verse is interesting to reflect on.
civic
Active Member
That
That’s where your preterism is a failure and your anti- Israel position where so many promised about His people in the land in the end times are yet to be fulfilled. You spiritualize all the literal promises of the Jews on their homeland. Talk about poor hermeneutics and eisegesis. That’s exactly what preterists do with scripture. It’s false doctrine to the core and makes a mockery out of Gods promises to His people in their land.
That Corinth verse was ripped from the biblical narrative on the end of the ages. It is culminating at Christs 2nd Coming and began at His 1st Coming.
That’s where your preterism is a failure and your anti- Israel position where so many promised about His people in the land in the end times are yet to be fulfilled. You spiritualize all the literal promises of the Jews on their homeland. Talk about poor hermeneutics and eisegesis. That’s exactly what preterists do with scripture. It’s false doctrine to the core and makes a mockery out of Gods promises to His people in their land.
civic
Active Member
The end times began with Jesus first coming and culminating at His 2nd Coming which is still future.
I am hoping that the clarification of the first-century end, as expressed in the Hebrew texts, will aid in showing modern Jews that the context for the appearing of Christ and the subsequent events were fully defined of that people. The recognition of those events and the beliefs that follow then can be freed from viewing within a gentile context, as if gentiles perhaps misconstrued the essence and timing of the Messiah. Indeed if this is the proper construal of prophecy, it is better for this reality to be known and let the listener deal with the content and hopefully come to Christ.
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Here's the verses on the end that I shared earlier with only the references, not the text.
Latter Days
Daniel 8:19 He said, “Behold, I will make you know what will be in the latter time of the indignation, for it belongs to the appointed time of the end.
Deuteronomy 32:29 Oh that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
Daniel 10:14 Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision is yet for many days.”
Latter end or Last days
Deuteronomy 32:29 Oh that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
Acts 2:17 ‘It will be in the last days, says God, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh. Your sons and your daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions. Your old men will dream dreams.
Latter end of indignation
Daniel 8:19 He said, “Behold, I will make you know what will be in the latter time of the indignation, for it belongs to the appointed time of the end.
Daniel 11:36 “The king will do according to his will. He will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and will speak marvelous things against the God of gods. He will prosper until the indignation is accomplished, for that which is determined will be done.
Latter end when transgressions are full
Daniel 8:23 “In the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors have come to the full, a king of fierce face, and understanding riddles, will stand up.
Daniel 9:5 we have sinned, and have dealt perversely, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even turning aside from your precepts and from your ordinances.
Deuteronomy 32:29 Oh that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
End to sacrifice and offering
Daniel 9:27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week. In the middle of the week he will cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. On the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate; and even to the decreed full end, wrath will be poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 8:11 Yes, it magnified itself, even to the prince of the army; and it took away from him the continual burnt offering, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Daniel 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who spoke, “How long will the vision about the continual burnt offering, and the disobedience that makes desolate, to give both the sanctuary and the army to be trodden under foot be?”
Joel 1:9 The meal offering and the drink offering are cut off from the LORD’s house. The priests, the LORD’s ministers, mourn.
End of Israel – Last Day – promises to Israel
Romans 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written, “There will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
Isa 10:22 For though your people Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will return. Destruction is decreed, overflowing with righteousness.
Daniel 11:40 “At the time of the end the king of the south will contend with him; and the king of the north will come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, with horsemen, and with many ships. He will enter into the countries, and will overflow and pass through.
Deuteronomy 32:29 Oh that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
Matthew 24:14 This Good News of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Daniel 12:7 I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by him who lives forever that it will be for a time, times, and a half; and when they have finished breaking in pieces the power of the holy people, all these things will be finished.
General end
Matthew 24:14 This Good News of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Daniel 12:9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel; for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.
Deuteronomy 32:29 Oh that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
Daniel 11:40 “At the time of the end the king of the south will contend with him; and the king of the north will come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, with horsemen, and with many ships. He will enter into the countries, and will overflow and pass through.
1 Corinthians 15:24 Then the end comes, when he will deliver up the Kingdom to God the Father, when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is near. Therefore be of sound mind, self-controlled, and sober in prayer.
Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood; and when he came, I was frightened, and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Understand, son of man, for the vision belongs to the time of the end.”
Matthew 28:20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
Isa 10:23 For the Lord God of hosts will make a full end, as decreed, in the midst of all the earth.
Latter Days
Daniel 8:19 He said, “Behold, I will make you know what will be in the latter time of the indignation, for it belongs to the appointed time of the end.
Deuteronomy 32:29 Oh that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
Daniel 10:14 Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision is yet for many days.”
Latter end or Last days
Deuteronomy 32:29 Oh that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
Acts 2:17 ‘It will be in the last days, says God, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh. Your sons and your daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions. Your old men will dream dreams.
Latter end of indignation
Daniel 8:19 He said, “Behold, I will make you know what will be in the latter time of the indignation, for it belongs to the appointed time of the end.
Daniel 11:36 “The king will do according to his will. He will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and will speak marvelous things against the God of gods. He will prosper until the indignation is accomplished, for that which is determined will be done.
Latter end when transgressions are full
Daniel 8:23 “In the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors have come to the full, a king of fierce face, and understanding riddles, will stand up.
Daniel 9:5 we have sinned, and have dealt perversely, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even turning aside from your precepts and from your ordinances.
Deuteronomy 32:29 Oh that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
End to sacrifice and offering
Daniel 9:27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week. In the middle of the week he will cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. On the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate; and even to the decreed full end, wrath will be poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 8:11 Yes, it magnified itself, even to the prince of the army; and it took away from him the continual burnt offering, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Daniel 8:13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who spoke, “How long will the vision about the continual burnt offering, and the disobedience that makes desolate, to give both the sanctuary and the army to be trodden under foot be?”
Joel 1:9 The meal offering and the drink offering are cut off from the LORD’s house. The priests, the LORD’s ministers, mourn.
End of Israel – Last Day – promises to Israel
Romans 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written, “There will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
Isa 10:22 For though your people Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will return. Destruction is decreed, overflowing with righteousness.
Daniel 11:40 “At the time of the end the king of the south will contend with him; and the king of the north will come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, with horsemen, and with many ships. He will enter into the countries, and will overflow and pass through.
Deuteronomy 32:29 Oh that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
Matthew 24:14 This Good News of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Daniel 12:7 I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by him who lives forever that it will be for a time, times, and a half; and when they have finished breaking in pieces the power of the holy people, all these things will be finished.
General end
Matthew 24:14 This Good News of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Daniel 12:9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel; for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.
Deuteronomy 32:29 Oh that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
Daniel 11:40 “At the time of the end the king of the south will contend with him; and the king of the north will come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, with horsemen, and with many ships. He will enter into the countries, and will overflow and pass through.
1 Corinthians 15:24 Then the end comes, when he will deliver up the Kingdom to God the Father, when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is near. Therefore be of sound mind, self-controlled, and sober in prayer.
Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood; and when he came, I was frightened, and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Understand, son of man, for the vision belongs to the time of the end.”
Matthew 28:20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
Isa 10:23 For the Lord God of hosts will make a full end, as decreed, in the midst of all the earth.
I'm mainly looking for the clarification of JoshebB. (I was trying to use hazy memory at first to recall his name here. haha)
After the fulfilled prophecies are figured out, then the remaining prophecies can be considered for yet-future fulfillment. It truly seems that details of Daniel, such as the focus on the people of Israel, have been overlooked. It seems we have been given much tradition over the years without, for example, relating (i.e. exegeting) Matthew 24 to Daniel's context.
civic
Active Member
99% of all Calvinists are preterists or partial and Amillennial. And he is a Calvinist
