Dizerner
Active Member
No, I would see it as symbolic.
Christian Destinies
- Thread starter mikesw
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No, I would see it as symbolic.
Selah
Active Member
I see it as literal.
Dizerner
Active Member
I only recently changed on this position actually. I used to read Revelation pretty hyper literally.
In all my life I've only made two major theological changes this being one of them.
Selah
Active Member
…but you’re right in that there is a whole lot of symbolism in the book of Revelation. I just happen to believe that the Millennium will be a literal time. …well, we’ll just keep on studying His Word and see what happens.
So, if Daniel is still sealed, does that not mean we have not reached the end yet? I mean, rationally speaking. Have you considered that the book of Revelation has been valid from the moment Jesus died until now? All the days after Christ, no matter how many, are the end days. What we are waiting for is the last days. The end of this temporal age. Sin does not continue, sin is gone. Righteousness reigns, and God dwells with man. Sin is nowhere to be seen, for it has been destroyed. There is also no crying, pain, Earth, heaven... it is all new for the first things have passed away to never return. (Revelation 21)
So why is the book of Daniel still sealed?
For some it is still sealed -- to those who have not seen the unsealing that Revelation gave us. Revelation 22:10 said not to seal up the prophecy.
I would be hard pressed to guess how Daniel remains sealed. I suspect it was unsealed once it was revealed who the Savior is and how he fulfilled prophecies that were totally confusing. Also, Revelation incorporates specific details of Daniel and thus must be giving explanation of Daniel.
Selah
Active Member
Well, let’s see now…. Let’s carefully read it again in Daniel:
Daniel 12:4 (NKJV) “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
Daniel was told to seal the book for the time of the end, the time for which it was written. The words spoken by the angel to Daniel were not for his time but rather for the time of the end, our time, the time when people would "run to and fro" which in Hebrew means to swerve, turn aside, apostatize.
s e l a h
It wasn't unsealed in Revelation. It is hard to guess how Daniel remains sealed, and will be revealed for the end times. It is all in relation to Daniel's visions. Daniel did not understand, so to him it was sealed. When he asked for explanation, they said seal it for the end times. So perhaps it has to do with understanding of what Daniel wrote, which will not be possible until one actually sees what Daniel wrote about happening. We still don't understand what Daniel wrote, though we have plenty of educated guesses, or better put a more educated understanding. All the things about the four great empires of man, found in Nebuchadnezzar's statue, and in the prophecy of the four beasts is understandable. What was sealed up was what happens at the end, which we have not reached yet. We stand at the precipice of God's patience. Prophecies of the Old Testament that come up before the end times/last days, however you consider the end leading up to the consummation, have been fulfilled. Players on the field for Old testament prophecies. Alliances spoken of in end time prophecies of the Old Testament are forming now/are formed. A lot is centered around "Persia", which today is known as Iran. There is a lot out there that says the end is drawing nigh.
You aren't going to get an argument from me. We are in the time after Jesus, approaching that time of summer drawing near, which Jesus said, in the case of His parable, is Him at the door. The interesting question is, how will it be unsealed? Will someone discover some book in the near future?
I see nothing of Persia since the end of Babylon empire. Anyhow, this strays from the topic of Christian destinies.
Selah
Active Member
Sure. It had to be unsealed in the seventy weeks or would have been useless. The unsealing also would be connected in time with the sequence of four empires that were to be judged in part for their arrogance when God was using them for disciplining the people of Israel. It was in succession to those empires that Christ was coming in his kingdom. To reject the first-century timing is to reject the warning to the people of John the Baptist to repent in view of the coming kingdom and related judgment. It would be improper of God to unseal Daniel after it was completed.
In several places in the Bible, we read of a new heaven and a new earth. Isaiah makes the first biblical reference with these words from God:
Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth and no one will ever think about the old ones anymore. Be glad; rejoice forever in my creation! And look! I will create Jerusalem as a place of happiness. Her people will be a source of joy. I will rejoice over Jerusalem and delight in my people. And the sound of weeping and crying will be heard in it no more (Isa. 65:17-19).
Peter presents a horrific picture of the end of this world:
The day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment. Since everything around us is going to be destroyed like this, what holy and godly lives you should live, looking forward to the day of God…. On that day he will set the heavens on fire and the elements will melt away in the flames. But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world filled with God’s righteousness (2 Pet. 3:10-13).
Not everyone agrees, but this statement may point to the new world: “God blesses those who are humble, for they will inherit the whole earth” (Matt. 5:5). Because we haven’t yet inherited the earth in this life, it must be a promise that God will fulfill in the future.
Perhaps one of the best passages that gives us a brief preview of the new heavens and the new earth is found in Revelation 21–22. Although there are sharp differences in interpreting this book, most see these chapters as a symbolic preview of what lies ahead. For instance, Revelation 21:1-4 reads:
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared…. And I saw the holy city, the New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. I heard a loud shout from the throne, saying, “Look, God’s home is now among his people! He will live with them and they will be his people. God himself will be with them. He will wipe every tear from their eyes and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever.
I Believe in Heaven: Real Stories from the Bible, History and Today
Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth and no one will ever think about the old ones anymore. Be glad; rejoice forever in my creation! And look! I will create Jerusalem as a place of happiness. Her people will be a source of joy. I will rejoice over Jerusalem and delight in my people. And the sound of weeping and crying will be heard in it no more (Isa. 65:17-19).
Peter presents a horrific picture of the end of this world:
The day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment. Since everything around us is going to be destroyed like this, what holy and godly lives you should live, looking forward to the day of God…. On that day he will set the heavens on fire and the elements will melt away in the flames. But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world filled with God’s righteousness (2 Pet. 3:10-13).
Not everyone agrees, but this statement may point to the new world: “God blesses those who are humble, for they will inherit the whole earth” (Matt. 5:5). Because we haven’t yet inherited the earth in this life, it must be a promise that God will fulfill in the future.
Perhaps one of the best passages that gives us a brief preview of the new heavens and the new earth is found in Revelation 21–22. Although there are sharp differences in interpreting this book, most see these chapters as a symbolic preview of what lies ahead. For instance, Revelation 21:1-4 reads:
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared…. And I saw the holy city, the New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. I heard a loud shout from the throne, saying, “Look, God’s home is now among his people! He will live with them and they will be his people. God himself will be with them. He will wipe every tear from their eyes and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever.
I Believe in Heaven: Real Stories from the Bible, History and Today
Sure. That seems to reflect a general focus on something obtained in the future. The ideas seem to include a concept of heaven and then another step of being back on earth.
civic
Active Member
Yep
Grace ambassador
Active Member
op: Christian destinies?:
Precious friends, books may confirm that Christians will not end up in heaven? But:
Christ “Gathers His Body” To Himself (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1 AV) = Purpose?:
To Take them To our Eternal Home = Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2;
2 Corinthians 5:1-2; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 1:20; Ephesians 2:6;
Philippians 3:20 AV)
+
Confirmed By:
At least this is "my destiny" - thanks for asking...
Amen.
Precious friends, books may confirm that Christians will not end up in heaven? But:
What About The Scriptures for The Body Of Christ?:
Great Grace Departure!
(borrowed from point # 5):
Christ “Gathers His Body” To Himself (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1 AV) = Purpose?:
To Take them To our Eternal Home = Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2;
2 Corinthians 5:1-2; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 1:20; Ephesians 2:6;
Philippians 3:20 AV)
+
Confirmed By:
“And The Lord Shall Deliver me from every evil work, and Will preserve me unto
His Heavenly Kingdom: to Whom Be Glory for ever and ever. Amen.” (2 Timothy 4:18 AV)
At least this is "my destiny" - thanks for asking...
Amen.
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A few points...
The idea of "heavenly" can refer more to the benefit being of God rather than his explicit realm in all his gory. So in 2 Tim 4:18, the destination is not said to be heaven but rather is his kingdom, augmented with the sense of being heavenly sourced.
The other issue is that of resurrection as the focus rather than emphasizing heaven.
2 Cor 5:1-2 is a bit more supportive of your point where it shares we have a building eternal in the heavens.
I found many problems with the book that challenged heaven as the final destination. I think however we may see enjoyment in the unseen realm in the interim until a bodily resurrection. And Paul did talk about levels of heaven and paradise in 2 Cor 12:2-3. I found it interesting that he mentions paradise just as Jesus did to the criminal on the cross.
Iran was/is Persia, and the people living there, outside of the leadership and muslim arabs, are Persians. There are ethnic Persians in Iran, and the country has also been known as Persia. So, you deny history.
It has not. We don't even have those passages because they were sealed...
Selah
Active Member
I disagree. The book of Revelation gives us the 7 seals; remember?
