Belief

[The Rogue Tomato]

This isn't about Calvinism or Arminianism, but it is related, and I post this to make a point. Please answer these.

1. Do you believe in ghosts?
2. Do you believe in evolution?
3. Do you believe in supernatural faith healing today?
4. Do you believe in Alien (extraterrestrial) intelligent life?
5. Do you believe demon possession takes place these days?
6. Do you believe a vegetarian diet is healthier than a red meat diet?
7. Do you believe atypical therapies work? (Acupuncture, herbal medicine, acupressure, etc.)
8. Do you believe that your faith can change the outcome of any problems you are experiencing?

Please answer and I'll follow up with questions.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This isn't about Calvinism or Arminianism, but it is related, and I post this to make a point. Please answer these.

1. Do you believe in ghosts?
2. Do you believe in evolution?
3. Do you believe in supernatural faith healing today?
4. Do you believe in Alien (extraterrestrial) intelligent life?
5. Do you believe demon possession takes place these days?
6. Do you believe a vegetarian diet is healthier than a red meat diet?
7. Do you believe atypical therapies work? (Acupuncture, herbal medicine, acupressure, etc.)
8. Do you believe that your faith can change the outcome of any problems you are experiencing?

Please answer and I'll follow up with questions.

1. Spirits, yes
2. De-evolution. Man has actually gotten worse, not better. Evolution requires the context of "betterment".
3. God can do anything. However, I don't see any evidence that there are "faith healers" around today. However, God can have someone that I don't know about.
4. Yes.
5. Yes.
6. No.
7. Sometimes. Sometimes not.
8. Yes. I have personal experience.

 

[civic]

1- no not as the world defines them
2- no
3- no not as presented by faith healers- but God still heals but not through any gifted man like the Apostles.
4- no only demons,angels and God
5- maybe, maybe not.
6- in some cases but not in all
7-same as above
8- yes

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

1. Spirits, yes
2. De-evolution. Man has actually gotten worse, not better. Evolution requires the context of "betterment".
3. God can do anything. However, I don't see any evidence that there are "faith healers" around today. However, God can have someone that I don't know about.
4. Yes.
5. Yes.
6. No.
7. Sometimes. Sometimes not.
8. Yes. I have personal experience.

Is there anything I could do to get you to decide to believe that a vegetarian diet is better than a red meat diet? How about what I could do to get you to decide to believe there's no such thing as extraterrestrial life?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

1- no not as the world defines them
2- no
3- no not as presented by faith healers- but God still heals but not through any gifted man like the Apostles.
4- no only demons,angels and God
5- maybe, maybe not.
6- in some cases but not in all
7-same as above
8- yes

What would I have to do to get you to decide to believe in ghosts as the world defines them?

 

[civic]

What would I have to do to get you to decide to believe in ghosts as the world defines them?

you cannot

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

you cannot

Why not? EDIT: What if I could conjure a ghost of someone you know who died, and when you questioned the ghost, it knew things only you and that dead person knew?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Is there anything I could do to get you to decide to believe that a vegetarian diet is better than a red meat diet? How about what I could do to get you to decide to believe there's no such thing as extraterrestrial life?

Yes. Prove convincing evidence to the contrary. I would eat vegetables if it were not for my diabetes. I actually love them. I want to eat them. The evidence I've seen doesn't establish they are actually better.

The primary evidence against extraterrestrials is the vastness of existence that we do not entirely understand.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Yes. Prove convincing evidence to the contrary. I would eat vegetables if it were not for my diabetes. I actually love them. I want to eat them. The evidence I've seen doesn't establish they are actually better.

The primary evidence against extraterrestrials is the vastness of existence that we do not entirely understand.

The point I'm making is that belief is not a free will choice. Belief is not a decision you make. Belief comes from being convinced by evidence. You can't just decide of your own free will to start believing that vegetables are better for you than red meat. (By the way, I agree. I'm diabetic and my carnivore diet is working really well, though I cheated last night and ate some trail mix.)

Trust, on the other hand, is a decision you make. But before you can trust something, you must be convinced it is true.

 

[civic]

Why not? EDIT: What if I could conjure a ghost of someone you know who died, and when you questioned the ghost, it knew things only you and that dead person knew?

That would be a demon

 

[Rockson]

The point I'm making is that belief is not a free will choice. Belief is not a decision you make. Belief comes from being convinced by evidence. You can't just decide of your own free will to start believing that vegetables are better for you than red meat. (By the way, I agree. I'm diabetic and my carnivore diet is working really well, though I cheated last night and ate some trail mix.)

Trust, on the other hand, is a decision you make. But before you can trust something, you must be convinced it is true.

There's something deceptive in what you're saying about all this and I don't mean this as a put down of your sincerity.

What needs to be considered is that God HAS provided enough evidence to be sufficient for anyone to believe and having done so they will be deemed without excuse. There is this principal too that they down right KNOW something to be true but they give into deception. People suppress the more logical view of things all the time thus they delude themselves. So you would say well they just didn't believe but hold on a minute......I would say they were willingly choosing to be in denial. Another way of saying it your brain may be telling you have enough evidence for whatever to be considered a fact, so you actually have a faith in it but you choose to blank it out. In a real sense it doesn't mean you don't believe in it but a person chooses to walk in denial.

Even Christians can believe things but not exercise faith in them. We think of prayer. If you ask any Christian do you have a believe that if you prayed and fed your spirit each day for about an hour do you believe you would be better off and stronger spiritually? Most would say YES I accept that as a fact. So they may believe the fact but it doesn't mean they'll apply it and become such.

Or we could say this......ACTING in faith is a choice that you make, YOU CAN be convinced in your belief but not act in faith. But acting in faith IS A CHOICE.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The point I'm making is that belief is not a free will choice. Belief is not a decision you make. Belief comes from being convinced by evidence. You can't just decide of your own free will to start believing that vegetables are better for you than red meat. (By the way, I agree. I'm diabetic and my carnivore diet is working really well, though I cheated last night and ate some trail mix.)

Trust, on the other hand, is a decision you make. But before you can trust something, you must be convinced it is true.

I disagree.

Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

"Imagination" is very real in humanity. In our minds, we can "imagine" things are not what they actually are.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think;

I "believe" ....

That your position requires everyone to be reasonable. Man is most definitely unreasonable.

 

[praise_yeshua]

There's something deceptive in what you're saying about all this and I don't mean this as a put down of your sincerity.

What needs to be considered is that God HAS provided enough evidence to be sufficient for anyone to believe and having done so they will be deemed without excuse. There is this principal too that they down right KNOW something to be true but they give into deception. People suppress the more logical view of things all the time thus they delude themselves. So you would say well they just didn't believe but hold on a minute......I would say they were willingly choosing to be in denial. Another way of saying it your brain may be telling you have enough evidence for whatever to be considered a fact, so you actually have a faith in it but you choose to blank it out. In a real sense it doesn't mean you don't believe in it but a person chooses to walk in denial.

Even Christians can believe things but not exercise faith in them. We think of prayer. If you ask any Christian do you have a believe that if you prayed and fed your spirit each day for about an hour do you believe you would be better off and stronger spiritually? Most would say YES I accept that as a fact. So they may believe the fact but it doesn't mean they'll apply it and become such.

Or we could say this......ACTING in faith is a choice that you make, YOU CAN be convinced in your belief but not act in faith. But acting in faith IS A CHOICE.

The Gospel removes any sense of "excuse" though anyone may deny it.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Even Christians can believe things but not exercise faith in them.

That's my point. Believing is something that happens when you are convinced something is true. It's not a choice we make. And therefore it is not a salvific choice.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Trust/faith, on the other hand, is a decision.

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

"Believe in" is another way of saying "Trust in". People say they believe in God all the time, but they're simply saying they believe God exists. It's not the same as Trust or have Faith in God.

 

[civic]

That's my point. Believing is something that happens when you are convinced something is true. It's not a choice we make. And therefore it is not a salvific choice.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Trust/faith, on the other hand, is a decision.

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

"Believe in" is another way of saying "Trust in". People say they believe in God all the time, but they're simply saying they believe God exists. It's not the same as Trust or have Faith in God.

We choose to believe in everything we hold dear. Faith is active in our part not passive and happens to us. It’s reason and conviction

 

[Rockson]

That's my point. Believing is something that happens when you are convinced something is true. It's not a choice we make. And therefore it is not a salvific choice.

With a belief you can be convinced something IS true. Believing in a biblical sense is acting on the belief. If people willingly choose to suppress the self evident that's still a choice they don't have to make. They can make the other.

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

And about this verse. I really feel you've shortchanged yourself in accepting the Calvinistic way of thinking about this. Your side of this would say Jesus is saying this is the work that God does. Looking at the verses around it and we should really quote more than one verse, we read the following...

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
John 6: 28, 29

They asked him the work that THEY must do. Not what God must do but what they must do. He told them.....the work of God for them is to believe in the one he has sent. He doesn't even make grammar sense to suggest Jesus flipped the table here and say Hold it now I"m talking about the work of God not the work that you do. They asked him what work they needed to do. He told them. They needed to believe which really meant to receive and accept.

Now one must quote not by works lest any man should boast but it was talking about seeking to be saved by the keeping of the law. Context is KING. There is a work of faith however that we are required to do.