Axe and two 38's

[dwight92070]

From the point when you/they "believe" until you/they are baptized, yes; just as Naaman was still a leper from the point he chose to go dip in Jordan to the point he dipped the seventh time. Salvation, just like Naaman's cleansing, is received when the qualifications to receive it are all fulfilled.

So you're saying that I really didn't believe during those 2 weeks?

 

[Doug Brents]

So you're saying that I really didn't believe during those 2 weeks?

You may have "believed" (had intellectual assent), but you had not yet exhibited faith (pistis). Without faith, you cannot be saved.

 

[dwight92070]

The story of Naaman to illustrate your doctrine is invalid. Naaman had to dip 7 times for physical healing, not for spiritual salvation, forgiveness of sins, the new birth, or eternal life. The New Testament does not use this story as a type of a checklist necessary to receive salvation. Naaman was obeying one command (wash in the Jordan) repeated 7 times. Your doctrine requires obeying 4 separate commands (repent - believe - confess - baptize). There's no parallel between what Naaman did to be physically healed, compared to salvation.

Naaman was healed by God because of his humble obedience, not because he dipped 7 times in the Jordan river. God could have told him to throw 50 rocks, and if he obeyed, he would be healed.

Nowhere in Scripture do we read, "If you repent, believe, and confess, but skip baptism, you're not saved - like Naaman after only 6 dips. Again, there's no valid parallel between the two.

Baptism is not one mandatory "dip" in a multi-step salvation formula.

You're trying to fit your doctrine into an Old Testament story, and then calling that an illustration of New Testament "truth". The Old Testament story of Naaman is not a blueprint for a New testament "plan of salvation."

The clearest New Testament teaching on how we are saved is STILL: Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved - Acts 16:31
Then, have been cleansed of your sins, having received the indwelling Holy Spirit, as an act of joyful obedience, be baptized.

 

[dwight92070]

You may have "believed" (had intellectual assent), but you had not yet exhibited faith (pistis). Without faith, you cannot be saved.

You have absolutely NO idea what I exhibited, because you weren't there. I did exhibit faith immediately after my new birth. The very next morning, I told another serviceman about God and have witnessed to many since. I prayed every day, continued to read about Jesus in the gospels, I cried tears of repentance as I read Jesus' words and rejoiced knowing that Jesus had miraculously saved me. From that moment on, the only thing I wanted to do was whatever He wanted me to do. In a week and a half, I knew He wanted me to be baptized, so I did exactly that. I began attending a church regularly and fellowshiping with other Christians and haven't stopped in 55 years.

 

[Doug Brents]

You have absolutely NO idea what I exhibited, because you weren't there. I did exhibit faith immediately after my new birth. The very next morning, I told another serviceman about God and have witnessed to many since. I prayed every day, continued to read about Jesus in the gospels, I cried tears of repentance as I read Jesus' words and rejoiced knowing that Jesus had miraculously saved me. From that moment on, the only thing I wanted to do was whatever He wanted me to do. In a week and a half, I knew He wanted me to be baptized, so I did exactly that. I began attending a church regularly and fellowshiping with other Christians and haven't stopped in 55 years.

All of that is great, but I have known many who did those things but were never saved. Scripture doesn't say that those things save, or that those things will flow from those who are saved. Scripture says that salvation is received DURING baptism, in the water of baptism. If you hadn't done it, then it hadn't happened. Now, as you say, eventually you were baptized. But too many people are not, and they remain condemned.

The story of Naaman to illustrate your doctrine is invalid. Naaman had to dip 7 times for physical healing, not for spiritual salvation, forgiveness of sins, the new birth, or eternal life.

The fact that he dipped seven times instead of just once (as we must) is irrelevant. He completed what was required to receive the blessing promised, just as we must. His promised blessing was physical healing. Our promised blessing is spiritual renewal and rebirth. Different promises, and different requirements, but the uniting factor is that in order to receive the blessing the required conditions must be met.

The New Testament does not use this story as a type of a checklist necessary to receive salvation. Naaman was obeying one command (wash in the Jordan) repeated 7 times. Your doctrine requires obeying 4 separate commands (repent - believe - confess - baptize). There's no parallel between what Naaman did to be physically healed, compared to salvation.

The fact that you refuse to see it doesn't mean that there is no connection. Naaman had to believe, or he wouldn't have turned from his way home toward Jordan. He had to repent, and turn from his own way to the way commanded by the prophet. He had to dip seven times. For him, confessing God was not commanded so it was not a condition for his healing.

Naaman was healed by God because of his humble obedience, not because he dipped 7 times in the Jordan river. God could have told him to throw 50 rocks, and if he obeyed, he would be healed.

Precisely. It was not the dipping that healed him. It was God who healed him after he completely obeyed what was commanded, whether it was dipping seven time, or throwing fifty rocks, or eating three fish, it doesn't matter. What matters is the obedience to the commands of God that He says lead to receiving His blessing.

The clearest New Testament teaching on how we are saved is STILL: Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved - Acts 16:31
Then, have been cleansed of your sins, having received the indwelling Holy Spirit, as an act of joyful obedience, be baptized.

We have been through this dwight. The word for "believe" in Acts 16:31 is "pistis" which means "faith", not just intellectual assent. Faith requires action or it is dead and worthless (James 2:14-26). Acts 16:31 does not stand alone, separated from the rest of Scripture. Notice that immediately after the Apostles told the jailer to believe, they explained the Gospel to him, and then they were immediately baptized into Christ.

 

[dwight92070]

All of that is great, but I have known many who did those things but were never saved. Scripture doesn't say that those things save, or that those things will flow from those who are saved. Scripture says that salvation is received DURING baptism, in the water of baptism. If you hadn't done it, then it hadn't happened. Now, as you say, eventually you were baptized. But too many people are not, and they remain condemned.

I never said those things save. I was already saved. Yes the Scripture does say that those things will flow from those who are saved: Ephesians 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." God does command baptism after salvation. Beyond that, He does not command specific good works that must be done, but rather he leaves it up to us to be "zealous for good deeds". Titus 2:14
True, there will always be some insincere persons who are not really saved. So what? There are millions of us who were saved before baptism and who are zealous for good deeds.
Not true, if you're not saved before you are baptized, you should not even be baptized. Repentance, believing, forgiveness of sins all happen before baptism, not during baptism.
"and they remain condemned"? Condemned by you, not by the Scripture.

The fact that he dipped seven times instead of just once (as we must) is irrelevant. He completed what was required to receive the blessing promised, just as we must. His promised blessing was physical healing. Our promised blessing is spiritual renewal and rebirth. Different promises, and different requirements, but the uniting factor is that in order to receive the blessing the required conditions must be met.

The blessing of salvation is received by grace through faith, not by meeting some supposed required condition, like baptism. Paul tells us that we can receive righteousness, i.e. salvation, "not by working, but by believing in Him who justifies the ungodly." Baptism is done after we are saved, not before.

The fact that you refuse to see it doesn't mean that there is no connection. Naaman had to believe, or he wouldn't have turned from his way home toward Jordan. He had to repent, and turn from his own way to the way commanded by the prophet. He had to dip seven times. For him, confessing God was not commanded so it was not a condition for his healing.

The only "connection" was that Naaman dipped in water, which is why you love this story, because it hints at baptism. Beyond that, there's NO connection, because Naaman met some physical requirements to be physically healed. But in salvation, there are NO physical requirements to be spiritual healed, only faith in Jesus.

Precisely. It was not the dipping that healed him. It was God who healed him after he completely obeyed what was commanded, whether it was dipping seven time, or throwing fifty rocks, or eating three fish, it doesn't matter. What matters is the obedience to the commands of God that He says lead to receiving His blessing.

Yes, it was not the dipping that healed him. Today it's not getting baptized that brings new birth but God's grace through our faith.

We have been through this dwight. The word for "believe" in Acts 16:31 is "pistis" which means "faith", not just intellectual assent. Faith requires action or it is dead and worthless (James 2:14-26). Acts 16:31 does not stand alone, separated from the rest of Scripture. Notice that immediately after the Apostles told the jailer to believe, they explained the Gospel to him, and then they were immediately baptized into Christ.

Yes, we have been through this before and you are still misapplying James 2:14-26 In verses 14-20, James is referring to someone who professes to be a Christian, but really is not. Therefore he does not produce any good works, because he was never really born again. In verses 21-26 we see two believers, Abraham, and Rahab, and their works flowed from their faith. This is not faith to be saved - they already were. In both cases, we clearly see that they were already righteous by their works.
So the first mentioned section of James 2 is not speaking of someone who is initially getting saved.
Nor does the last section of James 2 speak of someone who is initially getting saved.

In Acts 16:31, Luke says that they spoke the word of the Lord to him and all who were in his house. It does not say that they repented and believed, but it is obvious that they did because the jailer was desperately wanting to know how to get saved. We also know that when someone repents and believes in Jesus, they immediately receive forgiveness of sins.
Luke 24:47 Jesus said, "and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name ..."
Acts 10:43 Peter said, "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.

So they already repented and believed and had their sins forgiven before being baptized in verse 33.

 

[Doug Brents]

I never said those things save. I was already saved. Yes the Scripture does say that those things will flow from those who are saved: Ephesians 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."

Baptism, praying, reading Scripture, crying tears of repentance, etc. are not "good works". Any unsaved heathen can do these things, but they are not saved, either by them or before they can do them.

God does command baptism after salvation.

No, He commands baptism as the point of entry into salvation.

Beyond that, He does not command specific good works that must be done, but rather he leaves it up to us to be "zealous for good deeds". Titus 2:14
True, there will always be some insincere persons who are not really saved. So what? There are millions of us who were saved before baptism and who are zealous for good deeds.

Not a single person in all of history since Pentecost in Acts 2 has been saved before they were baptized into Christ; not one.

Not true, if you're not saved before you are baptized, you should not even be baptized. Repentance, believing, forgiveness of sins all happen before baptism, not during baptism.
"and they remain condemned"? Condemned by you, not by the Scripture.

Condemned by sin because their sins have not been washed away nor have they been reborn through the Spirit.

The blessing of salvation is received by grace through faith, not by meeting some supposed required condition, like baptism. Paul tells us that we can receive righteousness, i.e. salvation, "not by working, but by believing in Him who justifies the ungodly." Baptism is done after we are saved, not before.

You still refuse to understand what "belief" is. Until you accept the truth of what belief is, you cannot comprehend what it takes to be saved.

The only "connection" was that Naaman dipped in water, which is why you love this story, because it hints at baptism. Beyond that, there's NO connection, because Naaman met some physical requirements to be physically healed. But in salvation, there are NO physical requirements to be spiritual healed, only faith in Jesus.

Again, this is completely wrong. The story of the widow who poured oil into jars to sell and pay her late husband's debts to save her son does not include water in any way, yet it equally portrays the requirement of meeting conditions to receive a blessing. The story of the widow who gave her last cake of bread to the prophet does not include water in any way, yet it equally portrays the requirement of meeting conditions to receive a blessing. The story of the invasion of the Promised Land (especially the taking of Jericho) does not include water in any way, yet it equally portrays the requirement of meeting conditions to receive a blessing.

It is not about the water. It is about the obedience of faith that meets the requirements of God to receive His blessing of salvation.

Yes, it was not the dipping that healed him. Today it's not getting baptized that brings new birth but God's grace through our faith.

And what is our faith? It is obediently doing what He says will result in our receiving His gift of salvation.

Yes, we have been through this before and you are still misapplying James 2:14-26 In verses 14-20, James is referring to someone who professes to be a Christian, but really is not.

And that is someone who doesn't DO WHAT HE COMMANDS; who doesn't demonstrate a living faith.

Therefore he does not produce any good works, because he was never really born again. In verses 21-26 we see two believers, Abraham, and Rahab, and their works flowed from their faith.

Their works were their faith.

This is not faith to be saved - they already were.

Rahab wasn't saved when she let the men out her window. She wasn't saved when she brought all her family to her house in the wall. She was saved because she did those things.
And the example of Abraham was indeed long after he was saved, but it is a demonstration that faith must continue throughout life, not just a single, one off act of faith.

In both cases, we clearly see that they were already righteous by their works.
So the first mentioned section of James 2 is not speaking of someone who is initially getting saved.
Nor does the last section of James 2 speak of someone who is initially getting saved.

Does it take faith to become saved? Yes.
Therefore, a living faith must exist, and be exhibited, before salvation is received.

In Acts 16:31, Luke says that they spoke the word of the Lord to him and all who were in his house. It does not say that they repented and believed, but it is obvious that they did because the jailer was desperately wanting to know how to get saved. We also know that when someone repents and believes in Jesus, they immediately receive forgiveness of sins.
Luke 24:47 Jesus said, "and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name ..."
Acts 10:43 Peter said, "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.

So they already repented and believed and had their sins forgiven before being baptized in verse 33.

We do not know that, because Scripture does not say that. When does Rom 6:1-7 say we die to sin and are resurrected by the Spirit? IN BAPTISM! When does Col 2:11-14 say our sins are cut from us and we are resurrected by the Spirit? IN BAPTISM! How does 1 Pet 3:21 say we are saved? THROUGH BAPTISM! Yes, repentance and belief must happen, but salvation is nor received because you repent. You don't get clean just because you turn around and walk out of a mud pit. You get clean when you are washed.

It seems you cannot come to grips with the fact that ALL SCRIPTURE must be true at the same time. If one verse says that repentance leads to the forgiveness of sins (which is salvation), and another verse says that confession of Jesus as Lord leads to salvation (which is the forgiveness of sins), then BOTH of these must come BEFORE salvation is received. And then other verses say that baptism results in being saved, having sins washed away, being clothed with Christ, being adopted as God's children, etc., then all three of these MUST come BEFORE salvation is received.

 

[FreeInChrist]

All of that is great, but I have known many who did those things but were never saved.

OK Doug, I did not read beyond this paragraph because you are jumping to conclusions and very judgemental to state you know people who did but were never saved.

Nicodemus was not told to be immersed by Jesus. that entire exchange in verse 5 and 6 is stricly talking about human birth especially with the mention of flesh...and then the spirit.

Did God say to get the to the baptisery? Or the nearest lake in Ezekiel? NO he said 36: 25-27 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

It was and is all about the spirit.

I am not going to debate this. It is what it is. Faith first, and then the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Acts of the Apostles 1:5 – “You will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

At its most basic level, “baptism in the Holy Spirit” means:

..... Being immersed, filled, or brought under the power and presence of the Holy Spirit.

.....It’s not about water, but about God’s Spirit actively working in a person.

.....Salvation is tied to the work of the Holy Spirit—not to water itself.

.....The Holy Spirit is the one who gives new life (John 3:5–8),

..... brings conviction (John 16:8),

..... and unites a believer to Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Water baptism, on the other hand, is an outward act of obedience that points to what the Spirit has already done inwardly.

The Spirit is the one who transforms. Water doesn’t do that.

Salvation is grounded in Christ and applied by the Holy Spirit~not by water itself!

• John the Baptist made the distinction clear:
  “I baptize with water… He will baptize with the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 3:11)

So salvation is not caused by water,
but by the transforming work of the Holy Spirit.

Scripture doesn't say that those things save, or that those things will flow from those who are saved. Scripture says that salvation is received DURING baptism, in the water of baptism. If you hadn't done it, then it hadn't happened. Now, as you say, eventually you were baptized. But too many people are not, and they remain condemned.

The fact that he dipped seven times instead of just once (as we must) is irrelevant. He completed what was required to receive the blessing promised, just as we must. His promised blessing was physical healing. Our promised blessing is spiritual renewal and rebirth. Different promises, and different requirements, but the uniting factor is that in order to receive the blessing the required conditions must be met.

The fact that you refuse to see it doesn't mean that there is no connection. Naaman had to believe, or he wouldn't have turned from his way home toward Jordan. He had to repent, and turn from his own way to the way commanded by the prophet. He had to dip seven times. For him, confessing God was not commanded so it was not a condition for his healing.

Precisely. It was not the dipping that healed him. It was God who healed him after he completely obeyed what was commanded, whether it was dipping seven time, or throwing fifty rocks, or eating three fish, it doesn't matter. What matters is the obedience to the commands of God that He says lead to receiving His blessing.

We have been through this dwight. The word for "believe" in Acts 16:31 is "pistis" which means "faith", not just intellectual assent. Faith requires action or it is dead and worthless (James 2:14-26). Acts 16:31 does not stand alone, separated from the rest of Scripture. Notice that immediately after the Apostles told the jailer to believe, they explained the Gospel to him, and then they were immediately baptized into Christ.