Arminian perspective on Gods Sovereignty and mans free will

Show one verse that says man has the ability to believe ? Jesus emphatically stated man cannot believe in Him Jn 6:44,65
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

You did not address this

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Was no man capable of believing Moses

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

The woman believed and men believed because they believed the woman

You did not address this or the question

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

You did not address this



Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.

Paul persauded men concerning the Kingdom of God

Another verse you did not address

Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.

Men were persuaded and believed based on the persuasion of Paul.

You do not address this



Convincing them Jesus was the Christ



Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

again you do not address

Even the preaching of the old testament is sufficient



John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John holds

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

You disbelieve his scripture

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

again scripture contradicts you

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

reading is shown to be sufficient for belief.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?

Miracles have power to bring about faith

again you just ignore


John 5:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?


This you never address



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

No answer

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

no response from your


unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.


These men heard and believed

Your verse simply shows man needed to hear from God

Having heard man can believe

Romans 10:17 (NASB95) — 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Here we are told how faith can arise.

As always, you just ignore truth.
 
Not one of those scriptures say man has the ability to believe in Jesus, it would contradict Jesus own words Jn 6:44
Stop accusing Jesus of contradicting his own words. There's no contradiction because now (since the Cross) everyone is offered the ability to be drawn to Jesus, no exceptions.

(John 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

You need to stop living in OT times.
There exists 2000 years of history that you need to catch up on. Time for you to catch up with history.
 
Paul didnt say men have the ability to believe in Jesus there.
And HE does not say that men have no ability to believe either.

That is a conjured up man made translation without actual words to support it.

BUT WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU THINK THIS MEANS?

believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Paul said believe. That was not because God cast out a fishing net and drew people to Paul to listen... it means Paul told them
to believe. If Paul told them to believe, do you really think he would have lied while he was preaching?

Paul was picked for service to God. To do what God said. Paul did not say that God would prick them in their hearts so
they would believe... he SAID..... BELIEVE. PERIOD.

You claim " “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

THERE IS NOT ONE MENTION OF THE WORD BELIEVE IN THIS VERSE.

OR IN

And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

If I were you I would be more concerned to find out why you cannot understand when Paul says to believe in their hearts that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead that is the same as believing in Jesus.

I would be panicked at this time in case .... FROM YOUR FAVORITE BOOK.... JOHN....

12:40 “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WILL NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED, AND SO I WILL NOT HEAL THEM.”

Yes sir. I would be panicked to wonder why I keep saying man can not believe when Jesus never said that in the verse you claim, but Paul did tell the men to believe.

You see something in one verse that is not there yet you are blinded to see it in another.

But again from the one you follow... John.... comes

John 12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

NOT A MENTION OF GOD DRAWING MEN, NOT A MENTION OF GOD DRAWING MEN TO BELIEF.

ONLY A MENTION OF John 12:32 “And I,(that would be Jesus) if I (that still would be Jesus) am lifted up from the earth, will draw (who draws????? that would be Jesus, not God) all men ( who is He drawing....ALL men... no mention of their belief) to Myself.” Jesus draws all men to himself.......... period
 
@TomL

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

This verse says nothing about men having the ability to believe.. In fact its saying believing comes through Christ
 
Stop accusing Jesus of contradicting his own words. There's no contradiction because now (since the Cross) everyone is offered the ability to be drawn to Jesus, no exceptions.

(John 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

You need to stop living in OT times.
There exists 2000 years of history that you need to catch up on. Time for you to catch up with history.
Not one of those scriptures say man has the ability to believe in Jesus, it would contradict Jesus own words Jn 6:44
 
Not one of those scriptures say man has the ability to believe in Jesus, it would contradict Jesus own words Jn 6:44
You're accusing Jesus of a contradiction when there is none. There's no contradiction because now (since the Cross) everyone is offered the ability to be drawn to Jesus, no exceptions.

(John 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

You need to stop living in OT times.
There exists 2000 years of history that you need to catch up on.
 
@MTMattie

And HE does not say that men have no ability to believe either.

False He does, and very specifically Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

He denies mans ability Twice in the same discourse.
 
You're accusing Jesus of a contradiction when there is none. There's no contradiction because now (since the Cross) everyone is offered the ability to be drawn to Jesus, no exceptions.

(John 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

You need to stop living in OT times.
There exists 2000 years of history that you need to catch up on.
Not one of those scriptures say man has the ability to believe in Jesus, it would contradict Jesus own words Jn 6:44,65
 
Not one of those scriptures say man has the ability to believe in Jesus, it would contradict Jesus own words Jn 6:44,65
I already sent you Rom 10:9 that you scoffed at. Stop scoffing at the word of God.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (Rom 10:9)
 
I already sent you Rom 10:9 that you scoffed at. Stop scoffing at the word of God.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (Rom 10:9)
There is no scripture saying man has the ability to believe, Jesus stated that clearly Jn 6:44
 
There is no scripture saying man has the ability to believe, Jesus stated that clearly Jn 6:44
Stop resisting what Rom 10:9 clearly says and you will no longer oppose the Power of God in your life.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (Rom 10:9)
 
Stop resisting what Rom 10:9 clearly says and you will no longer oppose the Power of God in your life.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (Rom 10:9)
You need to exegete that verse and show where it says man has the ability believe in Jesus.
 
There is no scripture saying man has the ability to believe, Jesus stated that clearly Jn 6:44
Who is going to be at the Great White Throne Judgement?

If you are to be believed there will be no one because there will be no need of one for the only ones that will brought up to heaven are those who God taps and they miraculously believe, with out doubt in Jesus.. which might just leave out Thomas cause
Jesus said he was alright when he said he NOW believed but God did not draw even him to believe.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. as @synergy said.
@MTMattie



False He does, and very specifically Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

WRONG AGAIN.... BECAUSE THE FATHER MAY DRAW THEM BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE ONE BELIEVE.

PAUL USED THE WORD BELIEVE. IT IS NOT IN EITHER OF YOUR VERSES..... AS I SAID BEFORE.... THOMAS WAS OBVIOUSLY DRAWN AS WERE ALL DICIPOLES BUT HE DOUBTED. HE DID NOT BELIEVE UNTIL JESUS HAD TO SHOW HIM.

SO BEING DRAWN DOES NOT MAKE ONE BELIEVE..... BEING DRAWN DOES NOT MAKE ONE HAVE FAITH. ... BEING DRAWN IS SIMPLY THAT BRANCH OF AN OFFERING THAT EVEN JESUS HIMSELF HAD TO SWITCH UP WITH John 12:32 AND IF I BE LIFTED UP FROM THE EARTH, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME.

BUT YOU KNOW @brightfame52
... THINK LONG AND HARD ON THIS ONE.......,,
IF GOD IS THE ONE WHO DRAWS AS YOU KEEP SAYING... (but you are wrong that He draws to belief)... AND JESUS HIMSELF TELLS US HE
WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME. Your favorite book John 12:32

DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT YOU HAVE DONE AND WHAT IS PROVEN HERE?????????????????///

GOD DRAWS... ACCORDING TO YOU.
JESUS DRAWS ACCORDING TO JOHN

THIS MEANS JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE GOD.


ERGO.... YOU are proving one step closer to the Trinity and YOU have proved Jesus is God. smiley_cheerleader.gif


65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

He denies mans ability Twice in the same discourse.
 
You're accusing Jesus of a contradiction when there is none. There's no contradiction because now (since the Cross) everyone is offered the ability to be drawn to Jesus, no exceptions.

(John 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

You need to stop living in OT times.
There exists 2000 years of history that you need to catch up on.
Yep 👍
 
You need to exegete that verse and show where it says man has the ability believe in Jesus.
Within Rom 10:9, man's ability to believe and subsequently to be saved is plain to all those who can read and understand English. Get yourself an English Tutor if you have difficulty reading English, or read that verse in your native tongue.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (Rom 10:9)
 
@MTMattie



Where is the scripture that says man has the ability to believe in Jesus ? God said man doest have that ability Jn 6:44,65 Jesus is God you know.
What did Paul mean when he said.... Romans 10:9

That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

If you believe,

In Romans 10 Paul is praying that his readers will be saved by placing their faith in Christ.
God is not drawing anyone.There is a belief that is circulating that they can be made righteous through their own obedience to the law rather than faith. Paul is writing to correct this false belief and encourage both Jews and Gentiles to return to God.

In Romans 10:5-13 Paul is showing his readers that they have rejected God due to this belief. They are refusing to trust in him and instead are trying to earn salvation. Paul is urging his readers to declare their faith in God.

If You Confess With Your Mouth Jesus Is Lord

To confess is to acknowledge your faith in Jesus. In the early church, and today, this is often demonstrated by a verbal confession and shown in water baptism.

In the context of this verse what they are confessing is that Jesus is Lord. This was a simple and common expression that believers used to confess their faith. And this flies in the face of what people were doing in the world around them. In the Roman world Caesar was “Lord” and people were expected to acknowledge him as such. Paul is challenging his readers to face who is really Lord, Jesus or Caesar.

This isn’t something to be taken lightly. To have someone be “Lord” over you means that you are submitting to them. And to go against Caesar could also mean persecution.

To confess that Jesus is Lord means that our lives will be forever changed. It is no longer us who is in control, but Jesus.

And If You Believe In Your Heart That God Raised Him From The Dead

Not only should we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, but we should believe in our hearts that he rose from the dead.

These two go together. If we believe in the resurrection of Jesus we must also believe Jesus is Lord. Belief in the resurrection is evidence of faith and proves that he is indeed Lord.

To believe in your heart shows that your trust has been placed in Christ. It means that we’ve allowed it to seep into the deepest part of our being.

You Will Be Saved

If you believe in your heart and if you confess with your mouth, you will be saved.

Paul wraps this verse up by saying if we do these things, confess and believe, we will be saved.
 
Within Rom 10:9, man's ability to believe and subsequently to be saved is plain to all those who can read and understand English. Get yourself an English Tutor if you have difficulty reading English, or read that verse in your native tongue.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (Rom 10:9)
You need to exegete that verse and show where it says man has the ability believe in Jesus.
 
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