Arminian perspective on Gods Sovereignty and mans free will

synergy said:
Yes. Read verse 9. It talks about both confessing and believing Jesus.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (Rom 10:8-9)

Jesus doesn't stop with John 6:44. He also says the following in John 12:32:

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
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brightfame52 said:
Not one of those scriptures say man has the ability to believe in Jesus, it would contradict Jesus own words Jn 6:44
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That is the only thing they say and mean.

confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus.... is exactly about believing in Jesus.
believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead.....is exactly about believing in Jesus.

I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. these are the words of Jesus
 
MTMattie said:
That is the only thing they say and mean.

confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus.... is exactly about believing in Jesus.
believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead.....is exactly about believing in Jesus.

I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. these are the words of Jesus
Click to expand...
Say nothing about men having the ability to believe, Jesus made that clear Jn 6:44,65

Now if men do believe in Jesus, the True Jesus of limited effectual atonement, its because they believed because of regenerating grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Then Grace gets the credit and not the will of man !
 
brightfame52 said:
Show one scripture that says man has the ability to believe in Jesus, Jesus says man doesnt have the ability Jn 6:44
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Did you give my post a try to understand?

Show me the error in my post.

John 6 from verse 22 till the end is about the non believing OT Jews, not about us, non believing orthodox Jews.
 
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brightfame52 said:
Say nothing about men having the ability to believe, Jesus made that clear Jn 6:44,65
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Jn 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Jn 6:65 And He was saying, 'For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.'

Not one thing in these two says anything about the need to believe......

But Romans 10:9 states it as the truth. You have the wrong reference.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus.... is exactly about believing in Jesus.
believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead.....is exactly about believing in Jesus.
 
brightfame52 said:
Not one of those scriptures say man has the ability to believe in Jesus, it would contradict Jesus own words Jn 6:44
Click to expand...
If man did not have the ability to believe in Jesus then why did Paul say in Romans 10: 8-9

Paul said in Romans 10:

8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Paul is declaring that they are preaching and teaching and if the hearers believe and accept that truth they will be saved.
And then continues

10. for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Paul said not one word about having been drawn.... but they do say man has the ability to believe in Jesus.

Your John 6:44 does not say what you read.... Your does not say or even indicate man doesnt have the ability Jn 6:44...
Paul does tell us it they learn what is spoken and taught... then... they will.
 
MTMattie said:
Jn 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Jn 6:65 And He was saying, 'For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.'

Not one thing in these two says anything about the need to believe......

But Romans 10:9 states it as the truth. You have the wrong reference.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus.... is exactly about believing in Jesus.
believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead.....is exactly about believing in Jesus.
Click to expand...
Yep 👍
 
ProDeo said:
Did you give my post a try to understand?

Show me the error in my post.

John 6 from verse 22 till the end is about the non believing OT Jews, not about us, non believing orthodox Jews.
Click to expand...
Soon as you provide a scripture that states men have the ability to believe in Jesus, when Jesus says its not possible Jn 6:44
 
MTMattie said:
Jn 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Jn 6:65 And He was saying, 'For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.'

Not one thing in these two says anything about the need to believe......

But Romans 10:9 states it as the truth. You have the wrong reference.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus.... is exactly about believing in Jesus.
believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead.....is exactly about believing in Jesus.
Click to expand...
Like I showed already to come is equivalent to believe, and Jesus said no man can come to Him, meaning without ability.
 
MTMattie said:
If man did not have the ability to believe in Jesus then why did Paul say in Romans 10: 8-9

Paul said in Romans 10:

8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Paul is declaring that they are preaching and teaching and if the hearers believe and accept that truth they will be saved.
And then continues

10. for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Paul said not one word about having been drawn.... but they do say man has the ability to believe in Jesus.

Your John 6:44 does not say what you read.... Your does not say or even indicate man doesnt have the ability Jn 6:44...
Paul does tell us it they learn what is spoken and taught... then... they will.
Click to expand...
Where did Paul write that man has the ability to believe in Jesus ? I never seen that written and I have been studying scripture for over 40 yrs
 
brightfame52 said:
Where did Paul write that man has the ability to believe in Jesus ? I never seen that written and I have been studying scripture for over 40 yrs
Click to expand...
Paul said in Romans 10:

8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

The Him here is Jesus and Paul is telling those they must believe to be saved. ERGO it is up to each man to believe or not to.

Why ? Because THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith

It is the faith that pleases God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Do you understand this Hebrews verse? It states that without faith we cannot come to God.
He, God, rewards those who seek him.

There is nothing about the Father drawing people. There is nothing about the Father
predestining people. It is about Hearing cause we are told faith comes from hearing yada yada... and that is what God expects. That is what God wants.

For if you believe He will reward you. If you do not believe you cannot "come" to God....

Because He is not going to draw you the way you think He will.
 
MTMattie said:
Paul said in Romans 10:

8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

The Him here is Jesus and Paul is telling those they must believe to be saved. ERGO it is up to each man to believe or not to.

Why ? Because THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith

It is the faith that pleases God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Do you understand this Hebrews verse? It states that without faith we cannot come to God.
He, God, rewards those who seek him.

There is nothing about the Father drawing people. There is nothing about the Father
predestining people. It is about Hearing cause we are told faith comes from hearing yada yada... and that is what God expects. That is what God wants.

For if you believe He will reward you. If you do not believe you cannot "come" to God....

Because He is not going to draw you the way you think He will.
Click to expand...
Where did Paul write that man has the ability to believe in Jesus ?
 
I mean, it doesn't have to say the word "ability."

Notice there is an "unless," and Christ promised to draw all men.
 

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