civic
Active Member
Unfortunately we need thick skin on forums. Hang in there I’ve been called allot worse.
Arminian perspective on Gods Sovereignty and mans free will
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Dizerner
Active Member
Exactly, we cannot reject truths just because Calvinists believe them.
I get accused of being "Calvinist" for believing humans are sinful and Jesus made a substitutionary atonement.
That's just wild, both completely unhistorical, factually untrue, and most of all, unbiblical.
The distinctive of Calvinism is the denial of actual free will and the limitation of God's love.
synergy
Active Member
Here are even more verses that prove that the unsaved have the ability to believe in Jesus when presented with the word of Faith.
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (Rom 10:8-9)
synergy
Active Member
l'd like to meet those sinless humans.
They don't believe in the Cross? They must be Muslims.
Dizerner
Active Member
It's very trendy among certain "Christians" to deny these things these days, it's very disturbing.
There's a guy named "Idol Killer" with a 50 part video series against substitutionary atonement.
The Orthodox and Catholic also often deny it.
synergy
Active Member
Catholics and Orthodox deny the Propitiation view of the Atonement, not the Expiation view of the Atonement.
Dizerner
Active Member
That's like saying "The Annihilationists deny the torment view of hell not the poofing out of existence view of hell."
Ceasing to exist is not any valid definition of hell, and atonement without substitution is not a valid definition of atoning.
You can't hijack a belief simply by swapping terminology, that's what cults do when they believe "Jesus is Savior."
Calvinists and Eternal Securists believe in a "free will" that isn't free, yet they still want to lay claim to the term "free will."
Beware of such clever undercover evangelism for false doctrines in terminology hijacking and swapping.
civic
Active Member
Not quite true you believe in penal substitution atonement ( PSA)whereas as I believe in substitutionary atonement. A big difference between the two theories.
synergy
Active Member
PSA advocates adopted a pagan view of God (the retributive appeasing of an irate, vengeful, and vindictive deity) whereas the traditional non-cultist view has none of that. For sure we all have to be careful of those types of paganistic hijack attempt.
UNDERSTANDING JOHN 6:44
Actually I wanted to make this post my first new thread but I could not find how to do that.
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. -- John 6:44
Written to and about the unbelieving Jews of His time.
Imagine if you were a believing Jew in His time in love with the law of Moses.
And then there comes a man who calls Himself the Son of God, who forgives sins, who said -- I and the Father are One --, someone who puts your world upside down.
Are you 100% sure you would not pick up stones? Because that's what the Law of Moses ordered.
So yes, special revelation from God was needed to believe in Jesus was the promised Messiah, reading a few verses further we see the evidence and answer :
John 6:60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?”
John 6:61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this?
John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you [v44] that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
John 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
John 6:67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?”
John 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
John 6:69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”
I am not raised as an orthodox Jew, I was raised with the Bible. No problem with Jesus. However for orthodox Jews Jesus is a major obstacle. And the words of Paul 2000 years later are still true -
2Cor 3:13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end.
2Cor 3:14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
2Cor 3:15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.
2Cor 3:16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.
Fast forwarding ~1500 years to the reformation, John 6:44 has split Christianity into 2 camps, Calvinism, people being unable to come to Christ versus :
Jesus - As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.
Paul - So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Jesus once again - Then he said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest.” Matt 9:37-38
Millions of hearts are ready to receive, they only need to hear the Word.
Either one is true and my view is that there is no Calvinism in John 6. Being born as a religious orthodox Jew is a major obstacle to accept Christ, as it was to those lived in His time He was among us.
We (non orthodox Jews) don't have this problem.
Anyone who has a problem with Jesus needs special revelation from the Lord. The most known example in Scripture, Saul becoming Paul on his way to Damascus.
Selah
Active Member
Me too. I believe in PSA.
@Dizerner
Isaiah 53:4-11 (NKJV) 4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But He [was] wounded for our transgressions, [He was] bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace [was] upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. 9 And they made His grave with the wicked-- But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor [was any] deceit in His mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put [Him] to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see [His] seed, He shall prolong [His] days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. 11 He shall see the labor of His soul, [and] be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.
Selah
Active Member
Thank God for the Bible whereby we do indeed hear the Word of God.
Selah
Active Member
I would say that PSA is about love inside the Godhead and the love God has for the world. (John 3:16). We must consider the Trinity.
Exactly, but that's not what PSA teaches, PSA is about God the Father pouring his wrath (fury, rage) on God the Son at the Cross.
I showed many you will not address
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.
You did not address this
John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Was no man capable of believing Moses
John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
The woman believed and men believed because they believed the woman
You did not address this or the question
How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony
You did not address this
Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.
Paul persauded men concerning the Kingdom of God
Another verse you did not address
Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.
Men were persuaded and believed based on the persuasion of Paul.
You do not address this
Convincing them Jesus was the Christ
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
again you do not address
Even the preaching of the old testament is sufficient
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John holds
The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief
You disbelieve his scripture
2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
again scripture contradicts you
Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
reading is shown to be sufficient for belief.
As is the preaching of it.
Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?
Miracles have power to bring about faith
again you just ignore
John 5:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?
This you never address
Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief
No answer
Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed
Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
no response from your
unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe
Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
These men heard and believed
Your verse simply shows man needed to hear from God
Having heard man can believe
Romans 10:17 (NASB95) — 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Here we are told how faith can arise.
As always, you just ignore truth.
Selah
Active Member
I don’t understand…because God the Son (Jesus) is God.
MTMattie
Active Member
Absolutely correct.
And at that... the one verse he is stuck on does not even say what he is repeating and repeating and repeating.
John 6:65 says @brightfame52 ... And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
This says bnot one word about anyone's ability to believe in Jesus. Jesus said they dont Jn 6:65
Jesus said they dont Jn 6:65 ???????????????????????????????
No, He does not say that.
YOU need to find another scripture that specifically says that or just move on.
GodsGrace
Active Member
Good. The left eye was done.
I could see much better !
My brother and wife are coming over for a couple of weeks to visit.
As soon as he leaves, the right eye will be done.
Thanks for asking!
And yes, we do get tired of explaining the same verses over and over.
All that would be needed is for a reformed believer to ask why the they don't understand verses the same way
every other belief system does.
Guess that would be too easy!
Johann
Active Member
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