Are vessels of wrath able to become vessels of mercy?

[Swordman]

I recently did a book review of Thomas Dixon's Paul and the Wrath, published in 2024 by Baylor University Press. I cannot reveal what I said since I am waiting to see if my review is accepted, but I found the book compelling and his arguments persuasive and worth discussing. So I thought I would approach the topic in a slightly different way. Here are some questions for discussion.

What does it mean to be a vessel of wrath or a vessel of mercy? Is one an instrument of wrath or mercy, or is one a recipient of wrath or mercy? Or is it both?

Can a vessel of wrath become a vessel of mercy?

Does God ordain vessels of wrath from before creation, or does he respond to sin and prepare them for destruction?

This should be interesting. Keep in mind that rom 9-11 is one argument and what is said throughout should be consistent in how we interpret the parts.

 

[civic]

I recently did a book review of Thomas Dixon's Paul and the Wrath, published in 2024 by Baylor University Press. I cannot reveal what I said since I am waiting to see if my review is accepted, but I found the book compelling and his arguments persuasive and worth discussing. So I thought I would approach the topic in a slightly different way. Here are some questions for discussion.

What does it mean to be a vessel of wrath or a vessel of mercy? Is one an instrument of wrath or mercy, or is one a recipient of wrath or mercy? Or is it both?

Can a vessel of wrath become a vessel of mercy?

Does God ordain vessels of wrath from before creation, or does he respond to sin and prepare them for destruction?

This should be interesting. Keep in mind that rom 9-11 is one argument and what is said throughout should be consistent in how we interpret the parts.

I’m not sure you know this but I was a staunch Calvinist for over 40 years which is one of the main reasons that I started this forum. Here is what I believe in a nutshell on the topic but I have much more to say.

If we keep reading into chapter 9 the hardened Jew/reprobate is whom Paul prays for in their temporary hardening until all the gentiles are grafted into the branch. The potter/clay is God using the hardened Jews- His elect,chosen people ( destruction ) to bring in non elect vessels of glory ( gentiles) their salvation. The potter/clay is another analogy that contradicts calvinism, not support it. Once the glasses/lens are removed one can see the passages in their greater biblical context and harmonize them.

Remember Israel- the Jews are Gods Elect/ Chosen people.

Pauls summary of Romans 9: Faith vs Worksis what Paul is addressing in Romans 9. Gentiles ( non elect by faith ) Jews/Israel ( Gods elect,chosen) by works.

Romans 9
That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.

The above is the same teaching in Romans 3 below :

Romans 3
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith. 28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.

 

[civic]

Let’s not forget what Paul is quoting.

And that clay was mighty stubborn and self-willed as we read below.

Jeremiah 18:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 So now, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘This is what the LORD says: “Behold, I am forming a disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Now turn back, each of you from his evil way, and correct your ways and your deeds!” ’ 12 But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will persist in the stubbornness of his evil heart.’

 

[mikesw]

We are talking about Romans 9:22 (ESV)
22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

The backdrop of Romans is that the gentiles decided that Jews no longer could be saved. As a rough starting point, verse 19 actually puts a question on the gentiles' lips "Why does God still find fault with the Jews?" This of course was an odd twist from the gentiles' view. (It is hard to introduce the approach in the middle like this.) The answer is that God can make some for honorable use. So verse 22 says God was delaying wrath on Israel against the disobedient so that those of Israel who would come then have a chance to receive that mercy (v23). Paul follows this with the sense that gentiles also are benefiting from that mercy.

Mercy would still be available to those of the Jews who still were coming to Christ. God's hand remains outstretched during that time. This point then advocates that Jews could be saved, despite the gentiles' view that they lost their chance. One especially interesting aspect of Romans 9 to 11 concerns the likelihood that Paul shares his own personal question to God as to why so few of his countrymen responded and how God could be found faithful to his promises in light of that limited response.

In effect then, the idea of predestination does not appear here. Rather, Rom 9:19-23 presents an early part of Paul's argument to lead the gentiles to accept that Jews can be saved.

Romans 10 shows that God was sending the gospel to all of Israel such that the gospel was close at hand to them if they would accept the message -- but few did.

I know this point shares a context for Romans that has remained obscure throughout the years, but I think it will pan out as true.

 

[civic]

We are talking about Romans 9:22 (ESV)
22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

The backdrop of Romans is that the gentiles decided that Jews no longer could be saved. As a rough starting point, verse 19 actually puts a question on the gentiles' lips "Why does God still find fault with the Jews?" This of course was an odd twist from the gentiles' view. (It is hard to introduce the approach in the middle like this.) The answer is that God can make some for honorable use. So verse 22 says God was delaying wrath on Israel against the disobedient so that those of Israel who would come then have a chance to receive that mercy (v23). Paul follows this with the sense that gentiles also are benefiting from that mercy.

Mercy would still be available to those of the Jews who still were coming to Christ. God's hand remains outstretched during that time. This point then advocates that Jews could be saved, despite the gentiles' view that they lost their chance. One especially interesting aspect of Romans 9 to 11 concerns the likelihood that Paul shares his own personal question to God as to why so few of his countrymen responded and how God could be found faithful to his promises in light of that limited response.

In effect then, the idea of predestination does not appear here. Rather, Rom 9:19-23 presents an early part of Paul's argument to lead the gentiles to accept that Jews can be saved.

Romans 10 shows that God was sending the gospel to all of Israel such that the gospel was close at hand to them if they would accept the message -- but few did.

I know this point shares a context for Romans that has remained obscure throughout the years, but I think it will pan out as true.

I think Paul is saying a similar thing in Romans 9 as he did in Romans 1 where we see God turning them over to their already hard hearts. I think the Potter in Jeremiah 18 does the same thing with the Jews in their rebellion giving them over to the state of a reprobate mind/heart hence the clay is hardened no longer pliable and only fit for destruction.

 

[mikesw]

I think Paul is saying a similar thing in Romans 9 as he did in Romans 1 where we see God turning them over to their already hard hearts. I think the Potter in Jeremiah 18 does the same thing with the Jews in their rebellion giving them over to the state of a reprobate mind/heart hence the clay is hardened no longer pliable and only fit for destruction.

I am presently writing a proposed reading on Romans 1-3 showing that gentiles initially perceive Rom 1:18-32 to be about Jews. Paul then uses 2:1 to reveal the gentile Christians' misbehavior after the Claudius edict of AD49. This concept will be well-defended -- maybe overly demonstrated. Thus I do not expect to be very convincing when just offering glimpses of the approach.