civic
Well-known member
Always as in eternal just the same as the Father. I’ve stated this several times now.
An honest inquiry into the nature of Christology by a Trinitarian
- Thread starter Dizerner
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Dizerner
Well-known member
Always as in eternal just the same as the Father. I’ve stated this several times now.
You always think you state things "several times."
You are lot clearer in your own head than real life, lol.
If Jesus was eternally the Son, then he was eternally begotten, not just at the incarnation.
Johann
Well-known member
Psa_2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Joh_1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh_1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Joh_3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Act_13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Heb_5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
1Jn_4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
What say you? WHEN was Messiah begotten and was He always the begotten Son?
DavidTree
Well-known member
i have often pondered that.
However, i do not believe the scriptures allude to the WORD that was God being the begotten Son since Eternity.
Dizerner
Well-known member
I believe the Son was begotten three times.
1. In timeless eternity past.
2. At the incarnation.
3. At the resurrection.
Johann
Well-known member
THE PREEMINENT JESUS
A TRUTH OF POSITION
“[Jesus] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn
from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”
- Col 1:18
1. Position vs. Nature of God
a. The nature/character of God is never changing - Heb 13:8, Mal 3:6, James 1:17
b. God is great and greatly to be praised – Psalm 96:4
c. He is one God – Mark 12:32, Eph 4:6, 1 Tim 2:5
d. Yet something did change, the Word was made flesh – John 1:14
e. Jesus had the form of God and man – Phil 2:6-8
f. God does not die, but man does – Acts 20:28
g. Who had the power of resurrection? – John 10:17, 1 Thess 1:10, Rom 8:11
2. Positional Truth
a. Position def.~ a status or standing, place occupied, a post of employment
b. A position is not all encompassing; it is one sided ~ your job is one part of you
c. Position gives status – like a judge declares citizenship, or criminal status
i. Our position in Christ (in grace: not location) – Romans 5:2
ii. We are on Earth, but seated in heavenly places – Eph 2:6
iii. Our old man is crucified, yet we must reckon it dead – Rom 6:6, 11
iv. We wrong but we are made righteous in Christ – Rom 7:21 & Rom 5:1
d. Position has characteristics/responsibilities:
i. First and second Adam – 1 Cor 15:45-49
ii. We walk in righteousness - Eph 5:8, 1 Cor 6:11, 6:20, Romans 6:18
e. Position describes authority – Christ - Eph 5:23, ambassadors - 2 Cor 5:20
i. Not under law but grace is a positional truth of authority – Rom 6:14
ii. Higher positions are given by higher authority – Col 1:19, John 5:26-27
3. Jesus’ Position
a. “firstborn from the dead” – 1 Cor 15:20-23
b. Jesus begotten at his resurrection - Acts 13:33; Psalm 2:7-9
c. He is God – Col 2:9; He is Man – 1 Tim 2:5
d. He is the King of Israel – Mat 2:2; also their Lamb – John 1:29
e. Head of the Body – Col 1:18; he was made sin – 2 Cor 5:21
f. He is the heir of all things - Hebrews 1:-4
g. He was made lower than the angels (man) - Heb 2:6-9
4. “all things he might have the preeminence”
a. Pre-eminence def.~ Precedence; priority of place; superiority in rank or dignity.
b. All things defined: earth and heaven (universe) – Col 1:20, Eph 1:10
c. He is the head of the corner, the only foundation – Acts 4:11-12; 1 Cor 3:11
d. His preeminent position - Eph 1:20-23
e. Nothing separates us from him; because of his preeminence Rom 8:38, Col 2:10
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What is the nature of Christ’s sonship?
Concerning the eternal Sonship of Christ, Ryrie has this to say:
I agree with Buswell (A Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion, pp. 105-12) that generation is not an exegetically based doctrine. The concept it tries to convey, however, is not unscriptural, and certainly the doctrine of sonship is scriptural.
The phrase “eternal generation” is simply an attempt to describe the Father-Son relationship in the Trinity and, by using the word “eternal,” protect it from any idea of inequality or temporality. But whether or not one chooses to use the idea of eternal generation, the personal and eternal and coequal relation of the Father and Son must be affirmed. Least of all should eternal generation be based on Psalm 2:7 (Charles C. Ryrie, Basic Theology, Victor Books, Wheaton, IL, 1987, electronic media).
Psalm 2:7 reads, “I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.”
The Psalmist’s reference to “My Son” referred to the legitimate Davidic king (2 Sam. 7:14) who one day would reign in the person of Messiah, who, of course, is the Lord Jesus. The words “Today I have begotten You” speak of the day of coronation or the anointing of the King to be fulfilled in the Millennium. But in the New Testament, this is related to Christ’s resurrection (Acts 13:33-34; Rom. 1:4; Heb. 1:5; 5:5).
Many theologians or Bible students see Acts 13:33 to refer to Christ’s exaltation via the resurrection because it clearly validated Jesus’ claims and marked Him out as the Son of God as Paul demonstrates in Romans 1:4.
Becoming flesh made Jesus Mary’s son, but not God’s. This would suggest He had not been the Son of God and true deity prior to birth. Christ’s title as Son of God is a strong affirmation of the deity of Christ. Also from Ryrie’s Theology is the following:
Son of God. Our Lord used this designation of Himself (though rarely, John 10:36), and He acknowledged its truthfulness when it was used by others of Him (Matt. 26:63-64). What does it mean?
Though the phrase “son of” can mean “offspring of,” it also carries the meaning “of the order of.” Thus in the Old Testament “sons of the prophets” meant of the order of prophets (1 Kings 20:35), and “sons of the singers” meant of the order of the singers (Neh. 12:28). The designation “Son of God” when used of our Lord means of the order of God and is a strong and clear claim to full Deity. “In Jewish usage the term Son of . . . did not generally imply any subordination, but rather equality and identity of nature. Thus Bar Kokba, who led the Jewish revolt 135-132 B.C. in the reign of Hadrian, was called by a name which means ‘Son of the Star.’ It was supposed that he took this name to identify himself as the very Star predicted in Numbers 24:17. The name ‘Son of Encouragement’ (Acts 4:36) doubtless means, ‘The Encourager.’ ‘Sons of Thunder’ (Mark 3:17) probably means ‘Thunderous Men.’ ‘Son of man,’ especially as applied to Christ in Daniel 7:13 and constantly in the New Testament, essentially means ‘The Representative Man.’ Thus for Christ to say, ‘I am the Son of God’ (John 10:36) was understood by His contemporaries as identifying Himself as God, equal with the Father, in an unqualified sense” (J. Oliver Buswell, A Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion [Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1962], 1:105).
There are many other ways and passages to support the deity of Christ, but the point here is that this title clearly does that. It does not and cannot, as it is used in the Bible, refer to Him as a son by the incarnation. The incarnation did not make Him Son of God, it was the means that the Son of God became man that He might die for our sin.
What is the nature of Christ’s sonship? | Bible.org
Concerning the eternal Sonship of Christ, Ryrie has this to say: I agree with Buswell (A Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion, pp. 105-12) that generation is not an exegetically based doctrine. The concept it tries to convey, however, is not unscriptural, and certainly the doctrine of...
Guess we are in disagreement-again.
civic
Well-known member
Ditto I also gave lexicon definition
Johann
Well-known member
Who is in the bosom (ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον)
The expression ὁ ὢν, who is, or the one being, is explained in two ways: 1. As a timeless present, expressing the inherent and eternal relation of the Son to the Father. 2. As interpreted by the preposition. εἰς, in, literally, into, and expressing the fact of Christ's return to the Father's glory after His incarnation: “The Son who has entered into the Father's bosom and is there.”
In the former case it is an absolute description of the nature of the Son: in the latter, the emphasis is on the historic fact of the ascension, though with a reference to his eternal abiding with the Father from thenceforth.
While the fact of Christ's return to the Father's glory may have been present to the writer's mind, and have helped to determine the form of the statement, to emphasize that fact in this connection would seem less consistent with the course of thought in the Prologue than the other interpretation: since John is declaring in this sentence the competency of the incarnate Son to manifest God to mankind.
The ascension of Christ is indeed bound up with that truth, but is not, in the light of the previous course of thought, its primary factor.
That is rather the eternal oneness of the Word with God; which, though passing through the phase of incarnation, nevertheless remains unbroken (Joh_3:13). Thus Godet, aptly: “The quality attributed to Jesus, of being the perfect revealer of the divine Being, is founded on His intimate and perfect relation to God Himself.”
The Logos is plainly called theos in Joh_1:1. The Incarnation is stated in Joh_1:14, where he is also termed monogenēs. He was that before the Incarnation. So he is “God only begotten,” “the Eternal Generation of the Son” of Origen’s phrase.
Being-Verb - Present Participle Active - Nominative Masculine Singular
the [One] ὢν ōn|G1510|V-PPA-NMS|being εἰς eis|G1519|Prep|in τὸν ton|G3588|Art-AMS|the κόλπον kolpon|G2859|N-AMS|bosom τοῦ tou|G3588|Art-GMS|of the Πατρὸς, Patros|G3962|N-GMS|Father, ἐκεῖνος ekeinos|G1565|DPro-NMS|He ἐξηγήσατο. exēgēsato|G1834|V-AIM-3S|has made [Him] known.
"No one has seen God at any time" Some say that this contradicts Exod. 33:20-23 (see note on Exodus online). However, the Hebrew term in the Exodus passage refers to "afterglow," not the physical sight of God Himself. The thrust of this passage is that only Jesus fully reveals God (cf. John 14:8ff). No sinful human has seen God (cf. John 6:46; 1 Tim. 6:16; 1 John 4:12,20).
This verse emphasizes the unique revelation of God in Jesus of Nazareth. He is the full and only divine self-disclosure. To know Jesus is to know God. Jesus is the Father's ultimate revelation of Himself. There is no clear understanding of deity apart from Him (cf. Col. 1:15-19; Heb. 1:2-3). Jesus "sees" the Father and believers "see" the Father through Him (His life, words, and acts). He is the full and complete revelation of the invisible God (cf. Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3).
NASB "the only begotten God"
NKJV "the only begotten Son"
NRSV "It is God's only Son"
TEV "The only Son"
NJB "It is the only Son"
Peshitta "the first-born of God"
See note on monogenēs at John 1:14. Jesus is fully God and man. See full notes at John 1:1.
There is a Greek manuscript variation here. Theos/God is in the early Greek manuscripts P66, P75, B, and C (NASB), while "Son" is substituted for "God" only in MSS A and C3 (NKJV, NRSV). The UBS4 gives "God" a "B" rating (almost certain). The term "Son" possibly comes from scribes remembering "only begotten Son" in John 3:16,18 and in 1 John 4:9 (cf. Bruce M. Metzger's A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament p. 198). This is a strong affirmation of the full and complete deity of Jesus! It is possible that this verse has three titles for Jesus: (1) only begotten, (2) God, and (3) who is in the bosom of the Father.
Johann
Well-known member
So you disagree the Son was eternally begotten/in the bosom of the Father @civic?
3) "Which is in the bosom of the Father," (theos ho on eis ton kolpon tou patros) "The one existing in the bosom of God, the Father," a figure of speech signifying close personal relation between the Father and the Son in affection, in counsel, and in essence of nature and attributes.
civic
Well-known member
I’m not a processional trinitarian regarding Father/ Son in eternity past
Dizerner
Well-known member
You kinda missed the first part of the verse there, friend.
civic
Well-known member
I’ll answer this after work today
Wrangler
Well-known member
Wow! You have no rejection criteria for your IDOLATRY. A 2-natured being is not equal to a one-natured being.
Not only does this prove again that Jesus is not God, it proves Jesus is not equal to God - who alone is the Father.
DavidTree
Well-known member
WOW - i have a friend on here!
Thank you my Brother for being my friend.
YES - eye C
For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
DavidTree
Well-known member
For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
This underscores my perception(i could be wrong) that the WORD was Elohim in Completeness BEFORE THEY made a decision.
Johann
Well-known member
the only begotten Son; the word that was with God in the beginning. The Jerusalem Targum on Gen_3:22 says almost the same of the word of the Lord, as here, where it introduces him saying,
"the word of the Lord God said, lo, the man whom I created, the only one in my world, even as I am, יחידי, "the only one", (or, as the word is sometimes rendered, "the only begotten",) in the highest heavens.
And to the same purpose the Targum of Jonathan, and also Jarchi, on the same place. The Syriac version here renders it, "the only begotten, God which is in the bosom of the Father"; clearly showing, that he is the only begotten, as he is God: the phrase,
which is in the bosom of the Father, denotes unity of nature, and essence, in the Father and Son; their distinct personality; strong love, and affection between them; the Son's acquaintance with his Father's secrets; his being at that time, as the Son of God, in the bosom of his Father, when here on earth, as the son of man; and which qualified him to make the declaration of him:
Not going to be dogmatic brother.
Johann.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Always as in eternal just the same as the Father. I’ve stated this several times now.
"Eternal Son"
Johann
Well-known member
Neither am I-just go to the Scriptures and look up the morphologies.
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