A Miscarriage Of Justice?

[Olde Tymer]

.
FAQ: How is it not an outrage to allow folks to circumvent their responsibility simply
by believing Jesus died for their sins and rose again?

REPLY: God-- in some mysterious way that has thus far eluded my sense of fair
play --accounts Christ's followers as joint principals with him in his crucifixion (Rom
6:3, Rom 6:6, Gal 2:20) and in his resurrection. (Rom 6:4-5)

In other words: they haven't circumvented their responsibility, when in fact they've
stood to face justice another way that works just as good; actually even better.
_

 

[Diserner]

Absolutely.

And the reason we struggle to see this system of Justice is because we base the justice system on valuing the creation over the Creator, and refuse to make the Creator the sole locus of value due to his unique position of authorship and authority and worth.

See, when we sin against a fellow man, our instinct sense of justice is "eye for an eye." We don't think "I've just sinned against God," we think "I've just sinned against man." That's why it's not a sin for God to kill people—people never were the basis of sin to begin with.

Under this system where valuation of God's Being is the real currency of righteousness, we begin to see the real meaning of grace, and why a system of atonement can actually bring us real and valid righteousness—because God is the one who is offended because he is the spiritual "currency."

Now if sin is not in fact ultimately against the fellow creation, as King David said, "against you, and you only, have I sinned," then we can see the possibility that righteousness can be restored if only we had the right Currency to pay with—the value of God's Being himself.

And thus the Judge steps off the bench after condemning us, to reach into his own pocket to pay our fines—only God can pay for sin, because the debt of sin is not a cosmic moral standard that God himself is externally bound to, but the debt is actually God's value itself.

And Jesus, bringing the right Currency, the value of the Being of God, can thus restore God's value in a proper way by maintaining God's holiness through the expression of a degree of punishment that really matches how valuable God is—God pays for the sins we owe Him with... Himself.

You can mock the system in many different ways, as atheists often do, and try to depict it in a way that sounds ridiculous—but underneath your assumptions of God paying Himself off, will always be the idea that God really just isn't that important and valuable to need to do that.

And yet He is.

Let him pick up your tab today, it is his desire to suffer for you, so you do not have to.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Absolutely.

And the reason we struggle to see this system of Justice is because we base the justice system on valuing the creation over the Creator, and refuse to make the Creator the sole locus of value due to his unique position of authorship and authority and worth.

See, when we sin against a fellow man, our instinct sense of justice is "eye for an eye." We don't think "I've just sinned against God," we think "I've just sinned against man." That's why it's not a sin for God to kill people—people never were the basis of sin to begin with.

Under this system where valuation of God's Being is the real currency of righteousness, we begin to see the real meaning of grace, and why a system of atonement can actually bring us real and valid righteousness—because God is the one who is offended because he is the spiritual "currency."

Now if sin is not in fact ultimately against the fellow creation, as King David said, "against you, and you only, have I sinned," then we can see the possibility that righteousness can be restored if only we had the right Currency to pay with—the value of God's Being himself.

And thus the Judge steps off the bench after condemning us, to reach into his own pocket to pay our fines—only God can pay for sin, because the debt of sin is not a cosmic moral standard that God himself is externally bound to, but the debt is actually God's value itself.

And Jesus, bringing the right Currency, the value of the Being of God, can thus restore God's value in a proper way by maintaining God's holiness through the expression of a degree of punishment that really matches how valuable God is—God pays for the sins we owe Him with... Himself.

You can mock the system in many different ways, as atheists often do, and try to depict it in a way that sounds ridiculous—but underneath your assumptions of God paying Himself off, will always be the idea that God really just isn't that important and valuable to need to do that.

And yet He is.

Let him pick up your tab today, it is his desire to suffer for you, so you do not have to.

What does God do when you sin now?

 

[praise_yeshua]

.
FAQ: How is it not an outrage to allow folks to circumvent their responsibility simply
by believing Jesus died for their sins and rose again?

REPLY: God-- in some mysterious way that has thus far eluded my sense of fair
play --accounts Christ's followers as joint principals with him in his crucifixion (Rom
6:3, Rom 6:6, Gal 2:20) and in his resurrection. (Rom 6:4-5)

In other words: they haven't circumvented their responsibility, when in fact they've
stood to face justice another way that works just as good; actually even better.
_

Responsibility to God?

Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

 

[civic]

What does God do when you sin now?

the doctrine of PSA has no practical aspects to it just an escape from a God of wrath. Its a free meal ticket to eat all you want without any cost on your part. God has done it all and we do nothing, sin just continues because I'm forgiven.

Just the opposite of Jesus and the Apostles teaching.

 

[Diserner]

What does God do when you sin now?

I'm sure you understand all our sins are committed after Jesus already suffered?

God is timeless, and thus a lifestyle of faith in the atoning Blood of Jesus constantly applied his purchase price to us.

That's why both OT and NT call it being "sprinkled" with the Blood, the sacrifice has atoning value.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm sure you understand all our sins are committed after Jesus already suffered?

God is timeless, and thus a lifestyle of faith in the atoning Blood of Jesus constantly applied his purchase price to us.

That's why both OT and NT call it being "sprinkled" with the Blood, the sacrifice has atoning value.

As stated, why wouldn't you call this "penance"????

From what I see, you're basically appealing to the "timeless" nature of God from a endless suffering perspective. There is not a single argument to be found in the Scriptures that establishes such a premise. Jesus died once for sin. He hated the shame that it brought Him. Once in the end of time. Christ suffered. I don't see how your argument is established.

 

[Diserner]

As stated, why wouldn't you call this "penance"????

Penance, in a religious sense, is trying to pay back or work off a debt by what one does. It is a kind of replacement for the suffering of Jesus, because the only thing that can make our sin "better," as black and evil and vile as it is against God, is an eternity of suffering for it.

But this does not mean there are no conditions on receiving a gift, no non-meritorious works. To believe itself is something we do, but earns us nothing. Thus there is the condition of faith to receiving the gift, without it meaning in some sense we earn what we get.

As they say—reaching out to take a gift never means you somehow earned it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Back to Justice...

The appeal to Justice on the Atonement....

Is more about vindication of the wrath against sin or is it about the Just dying for the unjust?

Isn't there a meaningful distinction to be found here?

Is sin worthy of such a sacrifice or is it about the worthiness of Christ?

 

[Diserner]

Is sin worthy of such a sacrifice or is it about the worthiness of Christ?

It would be really nice if the worthiness of Christ meant that stubbing his toe paid for all sins for all time.

But God seemed to disagree with that assessment when it says the just suffers for the unjust, without qualification.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

It would be really nice if the worthiness of Christ meant that stubbing his toe paid for all sins for all time.

But God seemed to disagree with that assessment when it says the just suffers for the unjust, without qualification.

When I stub my toe, I often commit sins.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It would be really nice if the worthiness of Christ meant that stubbing his toe paid for all sins for all time.

But God seemed to disagree with that assessment when it says the just suffers for the unjust, without qualification.

What happens when you submit to sinners?

He gave His back... and body to the judgement of sinners.

I thought you were the reason Christ died......?

 

[praise_yeshua]

When I stub my toe, I often commit sins.

You believe God deemed it good that you to stub you toe? Why not praise God for "Sovereignty"

 

[Diserner]

You believe God deemed it good that you to stub you toe? Why not praise God for "Sovereignty"

I never understood this argument against EDD.

Because it's not like they can choose a reaction to it, under EDD the reaction is also not their choice.