civic
Well-known member
To call God a mechanism is to make God impersonal like you said which is far removed from the Personal God we know from scripture and experience.
A Favorite Reformed Doctrine
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
Yep
brightfame52
Well-known member
Does not this scripture passage set forth regeneration preceding faith ? 2 Thess 2:13-14
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
civic
Well-known member
FAITH PRECEDES REGENERATION
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Notice what comes first
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.
1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life
7- conversion
8- repentance
9- justification
10- sanctification
11- glorification
hope this helps !!!
Sue it does
Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life
The following verses show faith precedes life
John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -
One is made a child of God through faith
John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection.
We are raised spiritually through faith
Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel
James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation
Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
it is through faith we are saved
EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
.
Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin
Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
which requires both faith and repentance
Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 5:31 (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Indeed and regeneration is salvation. salvation is preceded by faith
Not tough at all
You took the passage out of context. It deals with those proclaiming to speak by the a higher spiritual power
No God did when receiving Christ
John 1:12 (ESV) — 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Acts 16:30–31 (ESV) — 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
I thought you stated you had something tough?
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Yes.
civic
Well-known member
No that’s not an order of sequence in the passage it’s saying belief in the truth and sanctification of the spirit are working together.
Plus sanctification is not regeneration you have conflated them.
Nice try
Obadiah
Well-known member
Luke, here, makes a statement about predestination. Some of the Jews and Gentiles were "appointed" or chosen to be saved, and it is those who believed (see also Romans 8:30; Ephesians 1:3–6, 11). This shouldn't be hard to accept. Anyone reading this can be saved. In order to know if you are chosen, just believe (John 3:16–18; Romans 10:9). If you believe, you know you were chosen.
BibleRef
Anyone that believes in Jesus and what he did on the cross is saved, therefore chosen.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Does not this scripture passage set forth regeneration preceding faith ? 2 Thess 2:13-14
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification/regeneration of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
civic
Well-known member
Isolating the verse shows you don't know what Paul is saying or meaning in verse 13. Paul is contrasting those who believe the truth and are saved with those who do not believe the truth and perish.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-14
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Next
brightfame52
Well-known member
Does not this scripture passage set forth regeneration preceding faith ? 2 Thess 2:13-14
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification/regeneration of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Fitzpatrick
Active member
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
[13] We always have to thank God for you, brothers and sisters, for you are dearly loved by the Lord. He proved it by choosing you from the beginning for salvation through the Spirit, who set you apart for holiness, and through your belief in the truth. [14] To this end, he handpicked you for salvation through the gospel so that you would have the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This passage comes up as supporting Calvinism a lot, but I think a careful reading of the language supports Arminianism better than Calvinism (as is so often the case). First, Paul says that they were “chosen” through…belief in the truth. That would most naturally be understood as faith being the means through which they were chosen (just as we are saved by grace through faith). So basically, we have a passage that says they were chosen “through faith” which is exactly what Arminianism claims, and is counter to the Calvinist view that we are chosen unto faith.
Now Paul also says they were chosen through sanctification, but we know that sanctification and the reception of the Spirit that sanctifies us is also by faith in Scripture (Acts 26:18; Gal. 3:2, 5, 14). We are “set apart” to God and marked out as belonging to Him through the reception of the Spirit of promise, and all of this is through faith.
The other issue is “from the beginning” in this passage, which probably has reference to the beginning of Paul’s ministry among the Thessalonians (there is no reason to take it as a reference to eternity or the beginning of time as Calvinists often do). It would be like saying. “from the very start, you were receptive to God’s working among you, receiving God’s salvation and becoming His people through faith and the sanctification of the Spirit.” There is also a textual variant issue at play in this passage which has “chosen as first fruits” rather than “from the beginning” here, which might convey the same basic idea of them being the first to embrace the Gospel in Paul’s ministry in that area.
Beyond The Fundamentals
[13] We always have to thank God for you, brothers and sisters, for you are dearly loved by the Lord. He proved it by choosing you from the beginning for salvation through the Spirit, who set you apart for holiness, and through your belief in the truth. [14] To this end, he handpicked you for salvation through the gospel so that you would have the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Why 2 Thessalonians 2:13 Does NOT Support Calvinsm
This passage comes up as supporting Calvinism a lot, but I think a careful reading of the language supports Arminianism better than Calvinism (as is so often the case). First, Paul says that they were “chosen” through…belief in the truth. That would most naturally be understood as faith being the means through which they were chosen (just as we are saved by grace through faith). So basically, we have a passage that says they were chosen “through faith” which is exactly what Arminianism claims, and is counter to the Calvinist view that we are chosen unto faith.
Now Paul also says they were chosen through sanctification, but we know that sanctification and the reception of the Spirit that sanctifies us is also by faith in Scripture (Acts 26:18; Gal. 3:2, 5, 14). We are “set apart” to God and marked out as belonging to Him through the reception of the Spirit of promise, and all of this is through faith.
The other issue is “from the beginning” in this passage, which probably has reference to the beginning of Paul’s ministry among the Thessalonians (there is no reason to take it as a reference to eternity or the beginning of time as Calvinists often do). It would be like saying. “from the very start, you were receptive to God’s working among you, receiving God’s salvation and becoming His people through faith and the sanctification of the Spirit.” There is also a textual variant issue at play in this passage which has “chosen as first fruits” rather than “from the beginning” here, which might convey the same basic idea of them being the first to embrace the Gospel in Paul’s ministry in that area.
Beyond The Fundamentals
Obadiah
Well-known member
What does Second Thessalonians 2:13 mean?
As Paul reflects on what God did in the Thessalonians' lives, he gives thanks constantly. They are his spiritual brothers in whom God's love abides. He is thankful specifically that God chose them from the very first to grant them salvation.
This divine choosing does not rule out human accountability. The gospel summons sinners to believe on Christ, which Paul's readers did (1 Thessalonians 1:4–6). However, the Holy Spirit fills a significant role in salvation by setting sinners apart for salvation. In response to the work of the Holy Spirit, the Thessalonians had put their trust in the truth, the message of salvation that Paul and his fellow missionaries had preached in Thessalonica.
Salvation is entirely by grace, but no one is saved unless he accepts it by faith as a gift from God. Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8–9: "for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." And in Romans 6:23 Paul declared that eternal life is the gift of God "in Christ Jesus our Lord." BibleRef
As Paul reflects on what God did in the Thessalonians' lives, he gives thanks constantly. They are his spiritual brothers in whom God's love abides. He is thankful specifically that God chose them from the very first to grant them salvation.
This divine choosing does not rule out human accountability. The gospel summons sinners to believe on Christ, which Paul's readers did (1 Thessalonians 1:4–6). However, the Holy Spirit fills a significant role in salvation by setting sinners apart for salvation. In response to the work of the Holy Spirit, the Thessalonians had put their trust in the truth, the message of salvation that Paul and his fellow missionaries had preached in Thessalonica.
Salvation is entirely by grace, but no one is saved unless he accepts it by faith as a gift from God. Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8–9: "for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." And in Romans 6:23 Paul declared that eternal life is the gift of God "in Christ Jesus our Lord." BibleRef
civic
Well-known member
Read my answer repeating yourself doesn’t change my biblical answer
brightfame52
Well-known member
Does not this scripture set forth regeneration before faith 1 Pet 1:2,22
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Again Sanctification of the Spirit is regeneration which is UNTO obedience, which obedience is unto the obeying the Truth,
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit
No, not at all
Word order does not establish temporal sequence but
Acts 26:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
shows men are sanctified by faith
Regeneration is how you are saved? Actually it's by grace THROUGH faith.. GRACE SAVES.
No one calls Christ Lord but by the Spirit.
Nothing is pleasing to God while yet in the flesh.
Flesh dies not give birth to Spirit.
REGENERATION PRECEDES FAITH
No one calls Christ Lord but by the Spirit
Nothing in the flesh is pleasing to God.
Flesh does not give birth to Spirit.
Unbelievers do not receive the Spirit
John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Gal. 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal. 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—
Gal. 3:14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Gal. 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Eph. 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
